The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Larry, I can see you are a man of refined taste. Most people don't like classical music i think because it is not of our time, but of all time, like Shakespeare. They also don't like because they have a short attention span. Most don't even know sonata allegro form or what a development is. It is not taught much in school anymore as educators of today consider it of no value, since it's not tested on the standardized tests. I saw Drake perform on TV, who is considered one the best current performers. Wow has music gone downhill, just like tattoo art, piercings, etc. I even had to walk out of The Book of Mormon, not because of the satirical content, but because of the horrible music, amplified so loud it was bursting my eardrums! I paid $90 for my ticket because a friend said he saw it, and it was a must see. I could tell I'm not in sync with the majority of the audience because I couldn't stomach it, but they thought is was hilarious. I know now to never go to a musical because of the over the top amplification that the rock concert crowd expect. I just saw a wonderful Rigoletto, a wonderful Aida, and am looking forward to Englebert Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel, and Rossini's Barber of Seville at the San Diego opera. All performed without amplification! I also love chamber music, especially the quartets of Beethoven and chamber music of Schubert, Haydn, Mozart, etc. That is music for the home when you are in a pensive mood. I still love noisy overtures, symphonies, and concertos though! I have a wide taste in music. I also prefer to hear some music while driving, like a rousing symphony or concerto so I can conduct it, and be moving fast through the world. It's just better than quietly watching a conductor waving his arm at an orchestra, while I'm sitting in cramped seats in a theater.

I was brought up with classical music from an early age and cannot imagine life without it, but Shakespeare I can well do without.
Although I cannot play a note, I am proud to be the father of a classically trained professional clarinettist, and grandfather of a budding violinist.

As a teenager in the early 1960's I lived through and ignored the era of the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and their many imitators.

Yes the microphone has much to answer for. The crooners and caterwaulers owe their living to it. Their talentless dumbed down outpourings pervade daily life everywhere. I expect and endure it in the supermarket, but now I even hear it in the bank! Rant over, time to listen to Caruso and his peers who needed no amplification.

Its interesting how those of us who are big fans of classical music have very similar feelings about it.. I have a friends here in a small town that drive about 2 hours to the St. Louis Symphony . They have ask me to go a number of times, but like some I much prefer to hear it here at home while I am doing something like a puzzle or art work or just about anything. Just sitting in a hall listening has never been as satisfying has hearing it at home. As to the value of the opera records its true that many years back, in the late 50's, some people made a living by sending our opera records of early periods to European Countries and here. The prices they got compared to what they paid for them was quite high. However today most classical things I see at dealers don't come close to those prices. I have another friend from Cedar Rapids I have know for over 50 years. He worked for a music collge for many years and sent me all the 78 albums from the music library that no one any longer wanted to devote space too. Many are like new. I can't even come close to guessing how many walls full of 78 albums I gave away several times. Currently I am culling some but devoting more time to some excellent ones I intend to keep for now. As to the early opera records I had probably a thousand of way back, most are gone. I gave the friend from Cedar Rapids hundreds of them a couple years back.

I grew up to the music my parents loved, which was a 50s-60s vocal group, Los Cinco Latinos, a good vocal group with their single voice, Estela Raval, having been trained as an opera singer, nice solo voice. Also the super-sycopated rhythmic old melodies performed by Ray Conniff's New Sound of the mid to late fifties, their early style, those old marvelous albums 'S Wonderful, 'S Marvelous, etc. which were also published in Europe by Philips, who had an agreement with US Columbia, the originary authors. Another thing I especially remember was incredible Harpo Marx playing with a small orchestra led by his son Mike Katz, if I remember well. Was a Mercury LP issued also in Spain, with marvelous melodies.
And over all, Rachmaninoff's Second Concerto, and Bach's Toccatas and Fugues, and Chopin's valses and nocturnes. Also classical gems as Thais' Meditation, etc.
Rachmaninoff was a world apart, we all undesstood that. By my parents stayed at the second concerto for all their lives, while I learned to listen to more and more Rach. It's something complex, that you must learn to listen to. But once engaged, you're engaged forever. His melodies and harmonies stay with me days and days after I've listened to him.
And what the world of gramophonic interests brought to me was something marvelous: Rach playing, his own works or others'.
Then at 10 yo, a music teacher at my school opened my heart and ears to Beethoven Symphonies, and also to the wonderful music of the russian XIX century people as Tchaikowsky, Borodin, Rimsky and all those, as also to the nationalists as Grieg, Dvorak, etc. To say that this is a 'easy listening' classical musoic, but very beautiful.
Later I developed by myself a taste for Beethoven piano sonatas, and other works.
And sorry for digressing, but back to the plot, the 78rpm hobby has opened my ears to the marvelous classical music these old people recorded by the thrillions, both short pieces or extracts and longer works. Classical 78s are cheap, as nobody wants them (at leas this has been the trend in the latest 40 years). So its a mine for me, as I love old classical music performances, orchestral and chamber, and still more the marvelous records of famous pianists, and the Casals cello and the violins of Heifetz, Menuhin and Kreisler, and all that stuff. I also love the organ music, and harp, etc. I own 6,000 78s, but 1,000 of them are classical and opera music.
I always think that if I had to escape fast, I would take with me the classical 78s (preferably the 12" ones) and a portable HMV101. That would be my survival lot!!!
Now thanks to having acquired my HMV big tabletop this summer (my first big machine with an exhibition soundbox, similar to a Victor VI) now I'm testing it everyday, rediscovering the acoustics in my collection, which I play on that machine. Not needed to say that the best ones I find to be are the operatics and the piano/violin records. Some orchestral items are also good.
And this I like with this small horn... How would I love to have a huge horn machine as the MOnarch Senior or the V, or still better the spanish HMV version no13, which was besides a marvel of wood work, with the huge wooden speartip horn...
BTW I have a version of Tod Und Verklärung conducted by its author, Richard Strauss, recorded in 1928 on Polydor records, and another version (abridged) in two acoustic HMVs conducted by Albert Coates, and I find the acoustic better than the latter electric. Also many 12" HMV acoustics of classical pieces played by spanish good bands are very good.
Sorry for the long message...

Its a bit off topic but to my ear the classical selection on Edison, especially the later ones of classical overtures and other pieces tend to have more realism and punch to the sound than the other somewhat wimpy and hollow sounding electrics of the same piece. In many ways the Victor Red Seals of symphonic selections often sound harsh and too tinny on the high ends, sometimes those late European Label selections are as you say, very satisfying and without the edge of the latter records. Granted at some point in the early 30's the sound became much better on electrical play back.

That hmv recording of strauss piece was recorded in April 1923, and sounds pretty good. Of course I tend to think that the real thing must be the 1928 Polydor recording with the author conducting. I think also that the Coates 1923 acoustic version must have an adapted instrumentation, as they did for acoustics. But i love this version, I find the Polydor too strong, while the acoustic adaptation sounds energetic but mellower.
Another marvel in acoustic recordings are the Gigli recordings. His 1921-22 Victor recordings of Cielo e Mar and Vesti la giubba (on hmv DA220) sound moving, warm and beautiful...

(I didnt see that this post is now three pages long~ sorry for my absence)

Opera was not the correct word to describe the records as. They were indeed folk songs, and light classical music. But they were very enjoyable to listen to nonetheless!

Cicuzza [folk song]- Fernando Guarneri and Con Coro (Baritone)--------This was my favorite song out of the whole lot. I would love to share it with anyone who wants to listen! I couldn't upload the file.... BUT i can email it to you!

send me a PM if you want a copy of the file.

I saw that the Symphony Series labels were brought up. Are these valuable?

Thanks everyone for responding!

dzavracky wrote:...I saw that the Symphony Series labels were brought up. Are these valuable?

Thanks everyone for responding!

Once again, it depends on who's performing and what and how commonly available good copies are. Some of the Symphony Series records are indeed at least somewhat valuable if in pristine condition, say those by Riccardo Stracciari or Maria Barrientos, although even here ready availability can weigh against a high price. On the other hand, some of them are barely different from standard sentimental pop fare of the day; somehow I suspect Oscar Seagle singing "Love's Old Sweet Song" will never be a hotly sought collector's item.

I know it's tempting to think in terms of "oh, that must be worth a lot," but, frankly, in the current market most records just aren't worth all that much, at least as compared to what they might have brought back before the Great Recession. My advice is to collect records because the music brings you pleasure, not as an "investment" or for "appreciation."

Among opera singers on Banner Columbia, a Stracciari or Barrientos are so common.

Maybe Rosa Ponselle's first records from 1918 in E copies or something like that might be more valuable on the "market". Or Mary Garden. Those don't turn up nearly as often as anything like Olive Fremstad and the other stable at Columbia at the time.

Yeah I do find myself thinking.... oh this label is lesser seen it must be valuable.
Haha it really matters what’s on the record not really what label the record is. Even through sometimes together they are big factors in the records worth right? The artist and the label together? Like if you had a song on one label, but the same song on another label might be worth more?