Washers at the bottom of HMV 102 spring case, Russian copy?

[gramophoneshane]

A clear picture of the HMV logo in the lid would be interesting to see (to me anyhow).

[nostalgia]

Here is a photo of the HMV logo in the lid.

[Phono48]

Firstly, may I say your command of the English language is perfect!
My thoughts on the gramophone, (and I stand to be corrected) are these. The internal horn is from a Russian clone, hence the nuts and bolts holding the arm, as HMV bolts would not fit. Also, the arm end of the horn is different to that of the HMV. The arm itself is a genuine 102 version, as it came with a No.5 soundbox, and a Russian soundbox does not fit that arm. The motor we have identified as a Russian clone. The motorboard appears to be genuine HMV, despite your comments regarding the location screws for the autobrake. The turntable is a Russian clone, although it does have the locking collar round the base, similar to the HMV turntables. My Russian clone has the same turntable and collar, but the autobrake is of a different design. All the other fittings, internal and external look to be genuine HMV. When I get time, I'll upload some pictures of the Russian model for comparison.

[soundgen]

Firstly, may I say your command of the English language is perfect!
My thoughts on the gramophone, (and I stand to be corrected) are these. The internal horn is from a Russian clone, hence the nuts and bolts holding the arm, as HMV bolts would not fit. Also, the arm end of the horn is different to that of the HMV. The arm itself is a genuine 102 version, as it came with a No.5 soundbox, and a Russian soundbox does not fit that arm. The motor we have identified as a Russian clone. The motorboard appears to be genuine HMV, despite your comments regarding the location screws for the autobrake. The turntable is a Russian clone, although it does have the locking collar round the base, similar to the HMV turntables. My Russian clone has the same turntable and collar, but the autobrake is of a different design. All the other fittings, internal and external look to be genuine HMV. When I get time, I'll upload some pictures of the Russian model for comparison.

Agreed for the most part it is an original HMV 102 machine with a replacement motor and turntable , I'm not convinced that the horn is not HMV though it may have just been altered for some reason it looks HMV particularly the way if fits to the motor board ,I think all that is needed is to fit the correct motor you have and you have a great 102 !

[nostalgia]

Thank you for all help and guidance solving the mysteries around this red model 102. Since I already have a black 102, bought cheaply with an ugly cage, but good motor, and all other necessary parts in good condition, including the missing turntable and automatic brake on this red model, I will use these parts to amend this red model, and put it back into it's proper state. I will also see, if I possibly change the internal horn and the correct tonarm fittings, since I also have these parts ready on the black 102. I will post a few photos in this thread, when the red 102 is back to it's original state.
Life is also strange sometimes, since I yesterday decided to sacrifice my cheaply (but so far only copy) of a black model 102, I today was offered a far more good looking black model 102 for 40 euro only, and will pick it up during the next week. A black model 102 has so far not been a must buy for me, since I know they are generally available in the market, but when a good looking black copy now turned up at this very good price, the same day I decided to sacrifice my only black model 102, this will be a win win situation really.
Thanks again guys:)

[gramophoneshane]

My (so far untouched) navy blue 102 was also made in 1950 so I'd imagine yours should have the same auto brake as mine.
I've also included a picture of the original key so you'll know what to look for in case you don't have one already.

[soundgen]

Thank you for all help and guidance solving the mysteries around this red model 102. Since I already have a black 102, bought cheaply with an ugly cage, but good motor, and all other necessary parts in good condition, including the missing turntable and automatic brake on this red model, I will use these parts to amend this red model, and put it back into it's proper state. I will also see, if I possibly change the internal horn and the correct tonarm fittings, since I also have these parts ready on the black 102. I will post a few photos in this thread, when the red 102 is back to it's original state.
Life is also strange sometimes, since I yesterday decided to sacrifice my cheaply (but so far only copy) of a black model 102, I today was offered a far more good looking black model 102 for 40 euro only, and will pick it up during the next week. A black model 102 has so far not been a must buy for me, since I know they are generally available in the market, but when a good looking black copy now turned up at this very good price, the same day I decided to sacrifice my only black model 102, this will be a win win situation really.
Thanks again guys:)

Your internal horn in this machine looks red on the inside when looking at your picture , which make me thin it is the original , if you use the black horn you would have to paint the inside red to get it to look right

[nostalgia]

Thank you Gramophoneshane for the photo uploaded, this was actually exactly what I needed! I do not yet from memory remember the difference between the different autobrakes, and this photo is of great help. I have looked carefully in His Master's Gramophone book, where the different brakes are covered on page 255 (excluding the autobrake no. 5 which is shown on page 209). I understand it is autobrake no. 6 that is used on these later models 102, but I very much appreciate to see how it is mounted on the wooden motorboard. I have a green model 102, also with an autobrake no. 6. I have now uploaded a photo of that autobrake. My black 102 is not in my home, so I cant check right now if it is the same type of autobrake as in my green 102. To me the mounting on this green 102 looks different than on your blue 102 with a wooden motorboard? Do they overlap each other? Can I use an autobrake with the mounting found on my green 102, on the red wooden board 102? Are by the way the winding key escutcheons similar on the different 102 models? I see that the escutcheon is removed from my red 102, I guess it was done when they installed the russian motor in the gramophone.
Thank you also Soundgen for reminding me about the painting job needed, if I install a new horn. I think maybe I keep the red horn, despite that the tonearm fittings, by some reason or another, is not completely genuine.

[gramophoneshane]

Yes, your green 102 brake is different to mine.
It's night time here so used a flash for my picture, but I'll take another photo in the morning with natural light. I may even remove it to compare the position of screw holes etc.
I've had this machine for close to 2 years and haven't touched it, so it's about time it got a proper restoration done so I can use it lol.

[Phono48]

The autobrake you have pictured is a No.5, and you cannot use this on your red 102.This was fitted on the 102a 1931-32, and was replaced by the No.6. The sunken metal motorboards were on the first 102as 1931-33 Then came the wooden motorboards, which were sunken into the case. This continued after the War, when production at the HMV factory resumed. The first 20,000 were ordered by the Ministry of Supply, and were 102d's in black only, with a few modifications.Last of all in 1948 came the 102 E and H, which had the motorboard level with the case, no panel in the lid with the HMV logo on it, and no winding escutcheon. All information taken from the "His Master's Gramophone" book.