The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

gramophone78 wrote:Actually, Scott's wonderful machines are technically hand driven "Phonographs" (except for Mike's the Edison Parlor model and Hardy) all the rest are Gramophone's and Graphophone's.....sorry, I couldn't resist... .

and a Phonogram

MTPhono, tell us about your tinfoil machines. One looks like a Hardy replica, which I assume was by Ray Phillips. I used to have such a Hardy replica, but sold it.

The giant brass machine is fascinating. It looks like a replica of the 1879 "St. Clair" tinfoil phono pictured on page 72 of Rene Rondeau's "Tinfoil Phonographs" book. Rene's book doesn't say for sure where the original is now, except that it was given to the Henry Ford museum in 1929. Where did yours come from, since it looks too new to be the original.

Jim Nichol

While I don't want to step on Scott's toes, I'll reply to point out that the original St. Clair is still in the Ford Museum's collection. The replica was made several years ago by Bill Miller in Michigan, who did an incredible job of copying the original in every tiny detail. It's an exquisite piece of work. I should point out that it's much smaller than the brass Bergmann tinfoil, but it's nearly as good in operation. The St. Clair hits a sweet spot -- big enough to be vastly better than small machines, but not so large as to be unwieldy to transport.

Here's the original (top picture) compared to Bill's replica. The original had been gold-lacquered when new, but sometime in its history it was stripped. The Ford polished it heavily (and somewhat carelessly) in the 70s or 80s, leaving brass polish residue in various spots. I hope that it will be properly conserved as part of the Ford's ongoing digitizing of its collection, which is a long ongoing process. Bill Miller offered his replica either lacquered or unlacquered, in which case the machines have tarnished much as the original ultimately did.

Thanks, Rene. I have 3 pics from you in the past of the St. Clair, including the one you just posted here. So I assumed Scott's was a replica. Thanks for explaining that Bill Miller made it, and that the Henry Ford still has the original. Do you know if it's presently on display?

Jim Nichol

I haven't been back in a few years so I'm not sure if it's still on display or not. It was in the Menlo Park laboratory, upstairs, sitting on a table with all sorts of other artifacts. It didn't really belong there since it wasn't made by Edison.

TinfoilPhono wrote:While I don't want to step on Scott's toes, I'll reply to point out that the original St. Clair is still in the Ford Museum's collection. The replica was made several years ago by Bill Miller in Michigan, who did an incredible job of copying the original in every tiny detail. It's an exquisite piece of work. I should point out that it's much smaller than the brass Bergmann tinfoil, but it's nearly as good in operation. The St. Clair hits a sweet spot -- big enough to be vastly better than small machines, but not so large as to be unwieldy to transport.

Here's the original (top picture) compared to Bill's replica. The original had been gold-lacquered when new, but sometime in its history it was stripped. The Ford polished it heavily (and somewhat carelessly) in the 70s or 80s, leaving brass polish residue in various spots. I hope that it will be properly conserved as part of the Ford's ongoing digitizing of its collection, which is a long ongoing process. Bill Miller offered his replica either lacquered or unlacquered, in which case the machines have tarnished much as the original ultimately did.

Thanks Rene,
I always appreciate your input. You are the undisputed expert on the tinfoil machines.

Mike

JimN wrote:Thanks, Rene. I have 3 pics from you in the past of the St. Clair, including the one you just posted here. So I assumed Scott's was a replica. Thanks for explaining that Bill Miller made it, and that the Henry Ford still has the original. Do you know if it's presently on display?

Jim Nichol

Jim - my St Clair is identical to Rene's example. Obviously his picture is much better. Mine is under a plastic cover (so I don't have to dust it ever). The other is a replica made in Europe in the 70-80s.

Mike - I forgot about two more that I have. The US Talking Machine you are familiar with but probably not the ⅓ scale fully operational Brady tinfoil by Bill Ptacek. Rene, what is the back store on this machine? I won it at the CAPS show in Anaheim the year before Bill died. I know he only made a few of them for the 125th Anniversary of the Invention of the Phonograph.

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The US Talking machine looks like an excellent example and the miniature Brady Tinfoil is very cool also. Thanks for sharing.

Bill Ptacek referred to those as the "Baby Brady."

We visited the Ford Museum together a few times in the late 90s and early 00s. On one visit the Senior Conservator showed us a miniature Brady model in their collection, which was believed to have been made by a student in Henry Ford's technical school as a project in the 1930s (the Ford has one of the two surviving original Brady tinfoils). The light bulb went on in Bill's mind. He had made 14 full-size replicas of the Brady tinfoil a couple of years earlier, and obviously had all of his original drawings and specifications. He figured it would be a simple matter to scale those down to make an exact one-third size model. It was a great idea, but after getting deep into the project he discovered that making baby Brady tinfoils took just as long as making the full-sized replicas. However there was no way he could sell the miniature, which was considered a novelty, for anywhere near as much as the functional full-sized version, so it was a money-loser for him. He cast enough bases to produce twenty miniatures, but with so many other projects taking priority, and no financial incentive, he only completed nine before his untimely death in 2004.

Here are his full-size and third-size Bradys.