Needles?

[poodling around]

Forgive me if this is a foolish question, but if bamboo needles have shafts that are triangular in cross section, how are they secured in a holder which is designed for round shafted steel needles?

There were bamboo needles made, in which the triangular body was cut down to a circular cross section where it went into the needle chuck. With some work, one could possibly replicate them.

- Bill

Yes. I have several packets of these 'rounded end' needles scattered around the gramophone room some-where. Here is a photograph of one of the packets I quickly found.

I also frequently (and solely on most of my gramophones) use home made bamboo needles. It is actually very easy and quick to 'round off' the 'chuck end' with sand-paper. (An emery board). It allows the bamboo needle to be more precisely and correctly positioned too.

[Hoodoo]

As to where to purchase steel needles in Canada, I have been getting mine from The Gramophone Doctor, who is in Sarnia, Ontario. Bob Nix was the Gramophone Doctor, but he passed away this year and his son, Brian has taken over the business. He will be able to supply your needles, I am sure.

[Inigo]

Yes, it's not difficult. With a blade cutter you can cut out the triangular peaks into a thin cylinder, from the mid of the needle up to the upper end, so then it fits into the round holder. These are the hmv example

[Lah Ca]

As to where to purchase steel needles in Canada, I have been getting mine from The Gramophone Doctor, who is in Sarnia, Ontario. Bob Nix was the Gramophone Doctor, but he passed away this year and his son, Brian has taken over the business. He will be able to supply your needles, I am sure.

Many thanks.

I will contact them.

[Lah Ca]

Thank you to everyone for the positive contributions to this thread, but especially to Lucius1958, poodling around, and Inigo.

The Internet is awash with so much confusing and contradictory information, so it is nice find somewhere where information is based on extensive experience, and even if some of that information is only opinion, it is at least opinion well-informed by experience.

Research shows that there is modest wealth of scientifically conducted study on the effects of different needle types and tracking forces on vinyl records. But even here some of the conclusions are contradictory or are of the "we just don't know" nature.

It seems very little or no formal study of steel needles on shellac compound records has been done since the BBC study of 1937/38. And here they were working with lighter-tracking electrical cartridges (ceramic? magnetic?) so the application of this study to acoustic gramophones is questionable. It is interesting that they concluded that the harder steel multi-play needles were the best value and did not seem to cause the damage to records that they had been expecting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1938_07

[Inigo]

Thanks for such an interesting report!

[Hoodoo]

Very interesting indeed. Received knowledge, from everything I have read, has been that a too hard needle would damage a shellac record, but the BBC article suggests that is not the case.
In the next day or two I will make a needle or two out of tungsten TIG electrodes, which are about five times as hard as steel, 1.6mm and 1mm (1/16” and 3/64”) and see how they perform.

[52089]

Very interesting indeed. Received knowledge, from everything I have read, has been that a too hard needle would damage a shellac record, but the BBC article suggests that is not the case.
In the next day or two I will make a needle or two out of tungsten TIG electrodes, which are about five times as hard as steel, 1.6mm and 1mm (1/16” and 3/64”) and see how they perform.

FYI, Victor (among others) made tungsten needles specifically designed for playing a significant number of sides before being changed. They were called TungsTone in the USA. The HMV equivalent was called TungStyle. You can search the board for either name for more information.

[Hoodoo]

I know the ones you mean. They have a very narrow bit of tungsten that doesn’t wear to a wider point as does a normal steel needle.
Mine would be the shape and size of regular steel needles, so would wear as steel ones, but more slowly, so perhaps I could get five or ten plays before they needed to be resharpened.

[Lah Ca]

Very interesting indeed. Received knowledge, from everything I have read, has been that a too hard needle would damage a shellac record, but the BBC article suggests that is not the case.
In the next day or two I will make a needle or two out of tungsten TIG electrodes, which are about five times as hard as steel, 1.6mm and 1mm (1/16” and 3/64”) and see how they perform.

But remember that the BBC was working with electrical cartridges which have much lighter tracking forces. It is not certain that when you change one major variable from that of a published study that the results will be the same without replicating the study with the new variable in place to confirm.

There is an interesting question prompted here, for sure.

However, years of collective reported experience and general gut feeling suggest that the common wisdom that softer needles produce less record wear with acoustic gramophones is probably correct.