Are cheap gramophones worth buying ?

[poodling around]

I agree that if you have the space, the Martinet is the best buy and appears to be able to play lateral and vertical cut records.
The Fullotone is a British made machine which used bought in mechanical components. I have one in black Chinoiserie finish.
The Columbia is an incomplete basket case.

'The Columbia is an incomplete basket case.' - that made me laugh in a good way ! Very true though of course !

Plays lateral and vertical cut records too. Very interesting indeed.

[Steve]

I have also seen many examples of the well known Gilbert cabinet machines. Some look very luxurious, but close examination has shown the cabinets to be made by nailing, yes NAILING the plywood sided into the corner uprights, and then covering the whole thing in thick dark varnish. I stress that this does not apply to all Gilbert machines, but certainly a good proportion. Further examples of "cheap" as regards manufacturing must surely include the last HMV and Columbia portables, so obviously made down to a price.
Barry

Were I to be offered any of the above machines at a ridiculously low price, to me they would not be cheap, they would just be wasted money, as I would get no pleasure at all from them. So to answer the original question, if they are obviously made down to a price and have little to recommend them, no they are not worth buying. I'm waiting to be offered a brown HMV 102 in good condition for twenty quid. Now that would indeed be "cheap"!

Barry

This is the most compelling argument put forward yet in this thread for why "cheap" gramophones are simply not worth buying! The definition of cheap here refers more to the quality as price otherwise dictates whether it is worth buying on a case by case basis depending on condition.

So for me at least, a cheap gramophone might be worth buying if it's in perfect condition but not a recognised make and has some interesting features or possibly has a well made cabinet. If it's a wreck, I'll happily pass as I believe we've entered the time when the gramophone market has shrunk considerably, rendering lesser known makes even less desirable than they've always been. Most collectors who are still actively buying appear to want the very best machines in the best condition. Everything else is secondary or of little interest and the prices reflect this. Space is at a premium for most of us so don't waste it!

As for whether high quality products are worth buying when cheap that too will come down to condition and completeness. A machine that is unlikely to be completed due to scarcity of parts is not cheap, it's just dead money tied up in a never-to-be-realised project. Poor condition higher quality items have to be viewed and judged carefully. If you're someone who wants to restore your gramophones then it might be worth it for the satisfaction of doing that alone but you have to remember the value will be diminished when you decide to sell.

Whilst most of us are not dealers and collect primarily for the satisfaction the ownership provides, I believe more than ever before we have to consider what will happen to these gramophones when we're all gone! The collecting market is a fraction of what it was 30 years ago. Most of the high quality items will hopefully find new homes but much of it will end up in landfill including the majority of these "cheap" gramophones, whether lovingly restored and brought back from the dead, or not!

[Inigo]

Yes, in a perfectly logical world.... In our collectors' mad world, it is perfectly understandable to buy even a bad basket-case only for the possibility of having the pleasure of making it work, just as a challenge. I've said possibility, admitting that these purchases sometimes are done impulsively and irreflexively... just an impulse, and many times this ends in a total failure... but still the only possibility of being successful makes us enter in the game...
Or not...???

[Lah Ca]

@poodling around

Taking things back to the top of the thread and your new acquisition, I note from your video that you will be looking for replacement silk.

I have found help with silk here in Canada in a Sikh thrift store. There is an area in the back with fabric remnants where there is usually lots of silk. A kindly, elderly Indian woman helped me match a 2.5 yard remnant of Tussar silk to an original fragment from the grill of my Aeolian Vocalian machine. The match is close if not exact, and there is a bit of purposeful slub in the new cloth that was not in the old. The cost was $2.50 CDN. The fabric is extremely high quality.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51968&p=309999&hili ... lk#p309999

You are welcome to a piece of this cloth if the postage to wherever you are (UK?) is not prohibitive. I have enough to replace my grill cloth dozens of times over. But if you live near a community with roots on the Indian subcontinent, I would suggest that you first look for community thrift stores and then, if failing in that quest, look for community fabric shops. There are a wide variety of silks available and in a vibrant array of colours that match the vibrancy of vintage grill cloth. You wont be sari!

[poodling around]

I have also seen many examples of the well known Gilbert cabinet machines. Some look very luxurious, but close examination has shown the cabinets to be made by nailing, yes NAILING the plywood sided into the corner uprights, and then covering the whole thing in thick dark varnish. I stress that this does not apply to all Gilbert machines, but certainly a good proportion. Further examples of "cheap" as regards manufacturing must surely include the last HMV and Columbia portables, so obviously made down to a price.
Barry

Were I to be offered any of the above machines at a ridiculously low price, to me they would not be cheap, they would just be wasted money, as I would get no pleasure at all from them. So to answer the original question, if they are obviously made down to a price and have little to recommend them, no they are not worth buying. I'm waiting to be offered a brown HMV 102 in good condition for twenty quid. Now that would indeed be "cheap"!

Barry

This is the most compelling argument put forward yet in this thread for why "cheap" gramophones are simply not worth buying! The definition of cheap here refers more to the quality as price otherwise dictates whether it is worth buying on a case by case basis depending on condition.

So for me at least, a cheap gramophone might be worth buying if it's in perfect condition but not a recognised make and has some interesting features or possibly has a well made cabinet. If it's a wreck, I'll happily pass as I believe we've entered the time when the gramophone market has shrunk considerably, rendering lesser known makes even less desirable than they've always been. Most collectors who are still actively buying appear to want the very best machines in the best condition. Everything else is secondary or of little interest and the prices reflect this. Space is at a premium for most of us so don't waste it!

As for whether high quality products are worth buying when cheap that too will come down to condition and completeness. A machine that is unlikely to be completed due to scarcity of parts is not cheap, it's just dead money tied up in a never-to-be-realised project. Poor condition higher quality items have to be viewed and judged carefully. If you're someone who wants to restore your gramophones then it might be worth it for the satisfaction of doing that alone but you have to remember the value will be diminished when you decide to sell.

Whilst most of us are not dealers and collect primarily for the satisfaction the ownership provides, I believe more than ever before we have to consider what will happen to these gramophones when we're all gone! The collecting market is a fraction of what it was 30 years ago. Most of the high quality items will hopefully find new homes but much of it will end up in landfill including the majority of these "cheap" gramophones, whether lovingly restored and brought back from the dead, or not!

Yeah, you say that but if you ever go to an auction and come across a poor little no brand table-top gramophone, with a broken spring, torn cloth turn-table and no winder, a sound-box with a concrete hard gasket and "Please help me steve" etched into the blown out aluminium diaphragm even you would not be so cold hearted as to leave it to 'skiptum' ! You are just not that guy !

[Steve]

Were I to be offered any of the above machines at a ridiculously low price, to me they would not be cheap, they would just be wasted money, as I would get no pleasure at all from them. So to answer the original question, if they are obviously made down to a price and have little to recommend them, no they are not worth buying. I'm waiting to be offered a brown HMV 102 in good condition for twenty quid. Now that would indeed be "cheap"!

Barry

This is the most compelling argument put forward yet in this thread for why "cheap" gramophones are simply not worth buying! The definition of cheap here refers more to the quality as price otherwise dictates whether it is worth buying on a case by case basis depending on condition.

So for me at least, a cheap gramophone might be worth buying if it's in perfect condition but not a recognised make and has some interesting features or possibly has a well made cabinet. If it's a wreck, I'll happily pass as I believe we've entered the time when the gramophone market has shrunk considerably, rendering lesser known makes even less desirable than they've always been. Most collectors who are still actively buying appear to want the very best machines in the best condition. Everything else is secondary or of little interest and the prices reflect this. Space is at a premium for most of us so don't waste it!

As for whether high quality products are worth buying when cheap that too will come down to condition and completeness. A machine that is unlikely to be completed due to scarcity of parts is not cheap, it's just dead money tied up in a never-to-be-realised project. Poor condition higher quality items have to be viewed and judged carefully. If you're someone who wants to restore your gramophones then it might be worth it for the satisfaction of doing that alone but you have to remember the value will be diminished when you decide to sell.

Whilst most of us are not dealers and collect primarily for the satisfaction the ownership provides, I believe more than ever before we have to consider what will happen to these gramophones when we're all gone! The collecting market is a fraction of what it was 30 years ago. Most of the high quality items will hopefully find new homes but much of it will end up in landfill including the majority of these "cheap" gramophones, whether lovingly restored and brought back from the dead, or not!

Yeah, you say that but if you ever go to an auction and come across a poor little no brand table-top gramophone, with a broken spring, torn cloth turn-table and no winder, a sound-box with a concrete hard gasket and "Please help me steve" etched into the blown out aluminium diaphragm even you would not be so cold hearted as to leave it to 'skiptum' ! You are just not that guy !

Is this a test? If so, please tempt me with something and we'll see how cold hearted I am these days!

The scenario above would be an easy pass for me anyway. Broken spring? Pass. No winder? Pass.

[Curt A]

My take on cheap/worthless gramos:
They can be transformed into something special, since it doesn't hurt to mess around with them for a project.

I was given an absolutely trashed Outing portable that was beyond restoring to original and even if complete, wasn't worth much. I also had a Cliftophone tonearm and reproducer that had been lying around for years with no purpose and an old violin. So, during Covid I needed to find something to do and not wanting to go anywhere, I decided to go to my garage and look around. I found the Outing neglected under a pile of stuff and decided to check it out. Even though it was junk, it surprised me how strong and quiet it ran. I had some left over quarter sawn oak lumber to construct a case and decided to start a project...

So, I decided to make a replica of a phonograph I always wanted to find - a French Le Palmodian with a violin on top. I found that most of the ones found on the internet are replicas anyway, so no harm trying to build one.

Here is the result:

[poodling around]

Yes, in a perfectly logical world.... In our collectors' mad world, it is perfectly understandable to buy even a bad basket-case only for the possibility of having the pleasure of making it work, just as a challenge. I've said possibility, admitting that these purchases sometimes are done impulsively and irreflexively... just an impulse, and many times this ends in a total failure... but still the only possibility of being successful makes us enter in the game...
Or not...???

' ......but still the only possibility of being successful makes us enter in the game...' - such a great, philosophical statement which applies to so many things in life and of course gramophones !

"Gramophone basket cases of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your defects !" .... unless of course 'this ends in a total failure' !

Wonderful !

[poodling around]

@poodling around

Taking things back to the top of the thread and your new acquisition, I note from your video that you will be looking for replacement silk.

I have found help with silk here in Canada in a Sikh thrift store. There is an area in the back with fabric remnants where there is usually lots of silk. A kindly, elderly Indian woman helped me match a 2.5 yard remnant of Tussar silk to an original fragment from the grill of my Aeolian Vocalian machine. The match is close if not exact, and there is a bit of purposeful slub in the new cloth that was not in the old. The cost was $2.50 CDN. The fabric is extremely high quality.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51968&p=309999&hili ... lk#p309999

You are welcome to a piece of this cloth if the postage to wherever you are (UK?) is not prohibitive. I have enough to replace my grill cloth dozens of times over. But if you live near a community with roots on the Indian subcontinent, I would suggest that you first look for community thrift stores and then, if failing in that quest, look for community fabric shops. There are a wide variety of silks available and in a vibrant array of colours that match the vibrancy of vintage grill cloth. You wont be sari!

Ha ha !!!

Your offer of the cloth is really appreciated ! Thank you. However, I have already ordered some from ebay so it's all good. It is camel brown so should match well. I thought I would spray the silk with starch so pleats could be formed with a warm iron. (In theory !).

Your 'sari' joke was very good ! One day I will use it as my own !

[Lah Ca]

My take on cheap/worthless gramos:
They can be transformed into something special, since it doesn't hurt to mess around with them for a project.

I was given an absolutely trashed Outing portable that was beyond restoring to original and even if complete, wasn't worth much. I also had a Cliftophone tonearm and reproducer that had been lying around for years with no purpose and an old violin. So, during Covid I needed to find something to do and not wanting to go anywhere, I decided to go to my garage and look around. I found the Outing neglected under a pile of stuff and decided to check it out. Even though it was junk, it surprised me how strong and quiet it ran. I had some left over quarter sawn oak lumber to construct a case and decided to start a project...

So, I decided to make a replica of a phonograph I always wanted to find - a French Le Palmodian with a violin on top. I found that most of the ones found on the internet are replicas anyway, so no harm trying to build one.

Here is the result:


IMG_0209-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_0556-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_0756-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_0900-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_1388-LePalmodian.JPG


IMG_2541-LePalmodian.JPG

Wow! Nice job.

It looks like something out of a Salvador Dali painting. You should have it posing with a lobster and a melting clock.