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Fran, I can't speak to the color of the Chinese Cut- Frieze reliefs, but I can speak to ratio of Mahogany C-250s to Oak C-250s.

Frow is purely quoted on Page 48 of his "The Edison Disc Phonograph", Footnote#5 - 1916-1917 Production and Orders Data Shows that "Proportion of Mahogany to Oak was Usually around 3 to 1." - This went for ALL Disc models at the time, Not just C-250s. Just to let you know.

I have George Frow's research to back up my statement, so I'd take it easy next time before lashing out as your "2 to 1" ratio of Mahogany vs. Oak you quote is incorrect.

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

If you check out the seller you will find that he mostly sells Radio's and get better prices than any one else on ebay. Also he offers to ship any piece for a good price. He has quite a following of the radio community.

Larry

I have a fumed oak C19. The "tooling" in the "tooled area" is just a pattern of small pits in the surface of the wood in the area, such as you might get if you struck a wood surface with a small awl. What makes the area look darker, I discovered when shining a bright light on it, is that the pits are dark. I would expect this is likely due to stain accumulating in the pits. This would be easily achieved by, for example, applying stain and then wiping it off. The stain would come off the high places much more readily than from the bottoms of the pits.

Clay

FloridaClay wrote:I have a fumed oak C19. The "tooling" in the "tooled area" is just a pattern of small pits in the surface of the wood in the area, such as you might get if you struck a wood surface with a small awl. What makes the area look darker, I discovered when shining a bright light on it, is that the pits are dark. I would expect this is likely due to stain accumulating in the pits. This would be easily achieved by, for example, applying stain and then wiping it off. The stain would come off the high places much more readily than from the bottoms of the pits.
Clay

Right Clay, my understanding of Fumed oak is that a stain may or may not have been used after the fuming process, proprietary to the manufacturer's specifications.

I guess the point of me resurrecting the OP's post is to find a way to definitively identify Fumed Oak Chippendales. In the catalogs, Edison offered oak cabinets described as "Golden", "White" and "Fumed". The overwhelming number of oak finishes I've observed so far have been "Golden", and that's probably the easiest of the three finishes to identify, even through a century of grime, wax, polishes, water and sun damage, etc.

The trouble that I'm having is positively identifying the Fumed Oak finish on oak cabinets that I've examined. Because of the process used for this type of finish, the color could vary immensely. Maybe to the point of being confused with the "White oak" finish.

hillndalefan wrote:Concerning the background on the card-cut frieze---on the Fumed Oak machines,
that background was NOT stained black as it was on the others. I was surprised
at that detail when I found my Fumed Oak C-250.

I was hoping that IF the aforementioned statement could be corroborated, I could use this information to help me accurately identify Fumed Oak Chippendale cabinets in the future as an extension of my research. But it doesn't look like this might help me after all.

George Paul was gracious enough to show me a fantastic example of a Victrola in Fumed Oak, and it's original packing crate identifying it as such. There can be no doubt to the accuracy of that machine and the "look" of it's finish.

However, I don't know of any such surviving example of Edison's Fumed oak.

Another point of possible confusion I'm dealing with could be the fact that "White Oak" -- in the literal sense -- was the actual wood used to manufacture the oak cabinets. SO, here we have not only "White Oak" cabinets, but "White Oak" finishes, too.

Best,
Fran

NEFaurora wrote:Fran, I can't speak to the color of the Chinese Cut- Frieze reliefs, but I can speak to ratio of Mahogany C-250s to Oak C-250s.

Frow is purely quoted on Page 48 of his "The Edison Disc Phonograph", Footnote#5 - 1916-1917 Production and Orders Data Shows that "Proportion of Mahogany to Oak was Usually around 3 to 1." - This went for ALL Disc models at the time, Not just C-250s. Just to let you know.

I have George Frow's research to back up my statement, so I'd take it easy next time before lashing out as your "2 to 1" ratio of Mahogany vs. Oak you quote is incorrect.

)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

Right you are, Tony. I'm familiar with the statement. Unfortunately, it is very subjective and leaves a lot to the imagination.

And as for my statement, I am examining SURVIVING Chippendales, not the actual production of them.

I stand by my statement 100%, that is precisely what the data shows.

Best,
Fran

Hi folks,

I'll be out of town for a few days, I'll pick up the conversation again on Monday!

Have a great weekend!

Fran

fran604g wrote:
I guess the point of me resurrecting the OP's post is to find a way to definitively identify Fumed Oak Chippendales. In the catalogs, Edison offered oak cabinets described as "Golden", "White" and "Fumed". The overwhelming number of oak finishes I've observed so far have been "Golden", and that's probably the easiest of the three finishes to identify, even through a century of grime, wax, polishes, water and sun damage, etc.






Another point of possible confusion I'm dealing with could be the fact that "White Oak" -- in the literal sense -- was the actual wood used to manufacture the oak cabinets. SO, here we have not only "White Oak" cabinets, but "White Oak" finishes, too.

Best,
Fran

I wonder whether "White" meant "unfinished" (as "in the white", for a violin assembled, but not varnished). Frow does mention that some cabinets were available unfinished, by special order, for the customer to have finished according to their own taste.

Bill

I think Shane nailed it! And the seller willeezwarez is highly regarded for his quality merchandise, professional packing, and willingness to ship at VERY reasonable prices. That's the real reason this went for so much.

Lucius1958 wrote:

fran604g wrote:
I guess the point of me resurrecting the OP's post is to find a way to definitively identify Fumed Oak Chippendales. In the catalogs, Edison offered oak cabinets described as "Golden", "White" and "Fumed". The overwhelming number of oak finishes I've observed so far have been "Golden", and that's probably the easiest of the three finishes to identify, even through a century of grime, wax, polishes, water and sun damage, etc.

Another point of possible confusion I'm dealing with could be the fact that "White Oak" -- in the literal sense -- was the actual wood used to manufacture the oak cabinets. SO, here we have not only "White Oak" cabinets, but "White Oak" finishes, too.

Best,
Fran

I wonder whether "White" meant "unfinished" (as "in the white", for a violin assembled, but not varnished). Frow does mention that some cabinets were available unfinished, by special order, for the customer to have finished according to their own taste.

Bill

That could make sense, Bill.

I'm using several C250 and C19 shipping slips and catalogs that span over the Chippendale's lifetime for my research, but I need more data to really understand what was really happening. There is so much speculation on the various finishes that were available as more-or-less "standard" and I would like to get involved in a definitive work to eliminate some of the misinformation that's all over the place. Particularly with the Edison Diamond Disc Phonographs models from the beginning to the end.

I have two very nice Mahogany Chippendales, a C250 (#33187) and a C19 (#172249), in my dining room at opposite corners, and the finishes are quite different from one another.

The C19 is much, much darker.

Another interesting note is that the outer grille frame wood used for this C19 is oak, but was stained to match the "mahogany" finish of the cabinet. I know this because I had to plane the sides of it a little because it had swollen and the fit of it to the horn opening was much too tight for my liking.

Fran