SonnyPhono wrote:This is all definitely concerning. I'm not sure if this would make a difference at all but I recall hearing or reading at some point that the new stylus bars Expert provide are a bit longer than the originals. Again, this may not make much of a difference in wear if any at all. But in theory, it would change the leverage of the stylus bar as it pivots with the vibrations. A longer stylus bar would flex the diaphragm more than a shorter bar. If the diaphragm isn't able to flex far enough, it could in turn cause the stylus to "plow" through the undulations in the grooves rather than ride on top of them. Like I said, the longer new bars may not be a problem at all, but I thought I would mention it to see what others think.
Definitely concerning to me.... I hope you test them rigorously...
Edison's styli were obviously genuine diamond. Is this the case with Expert's product, or are they a man-made diamond substitute, or perhaps a nature but poor quality diamond such as those sold in diamond specialist discount chain stores?
I'm sure Edison would have used above average quality diamond stocks for his styli to ensure his product would perform as it should. The fact that most original styli would have had 10-20 yrs of fairly regular use in the beginning, then another 50-70 yrs of irregular use until collectors acquire them, yet we still find original styli that we can get another 10 yrs use from until wear issues arise, seems to confirm that the original styli were of high quality & were made to last if treated right.
These modern replacement however, seem to be all over the place. Some perform well, some will cause damage from day 1, and others start out fine but gradually start to cause damage after only a few months of regular use.
I assume Expert have their styli ground and polished to a specific size or size range, so for want of a better word, these new styli should all be more or less identical, yet their performance appears to be right across the spectrum.
This suggests to me that it isn't the size or shape, or the heavy reproducer weight that is responcible, but it's the stone, (or stone quality) that is causing such varied results performance wise.
I think it's safe to assume that collectors wont be finding any of these modern replacements in usable condition, 90 or 50, or even 10 yrs down the track, as even the GOOD ONES seem to have an extremely limited life span compared to a genuine Edison stylus.
And to add a little regarding the diamond B type styli from Expert, I had one of those done at the same time and it's perfect, no damage at all. Looks and plays perfectly.
You can tell by comparing the new DD bars with an old one that there is a visual differnece in them, not only is it a little longer, but the stylus itself looks fatter all around and no matter how you mess with horn height on your machine(s), the stylus seems to ride the groove at an angle, not perpendicular to the groove (a 90 degree angle) as it should.
It's times like this that I wish I had stocked up on the nice originals Ron Sitko had a stash of back in the late 80s for $22 each!
I received a set of photos from another party that got some from the same batch.. He said they showed chipped and fractured tips, and these are new. I think as well it may be a quality issue with the diamond product what ever it may be that they are using, but you won't get that out of them.
There currently is no other source for them new, one would wish that someone else with the ability was willing to offer them but so far no luck on that.
Having read all of this I wondered if anyone tried mounting the new diamond onto an original DD bar to see if this helps to solve the problem? Or is it I wonder a fundamental issue with the quality or shape of diamond point used...
I didn't know they were using new stylus bars. Since the diamond is mounted on a metal piece which is then soldered into the bar (so it appears to me),I would think it a simple matter to produce the new diamond on a mount which could mounted into an old bar. There must be truckloads of old ones out there with broken styli. I think I must have a dozen or so in my junkbox.
What is the story on diamond cylinder styli? Are there similar problems with those or does the lighter weight of the cylinder reproducers help?
Several years ago, Wyatt's Musical Americana had NOS DD stylus/bar assemblies for sale. Does anyone know if he still has any available? I bought 3 of them for personal stock but I haven't had to use any of them yet. I have several DD reproducers, all with good diamonds and only one DD player, so I'm set for the foreseeable future.
BTW: is it just me or does there seem to be a greater interest these days in DDs and machines than there was say, 15-20 years ago? I don't remember that much interest back then. Even 10 years ago when I last sold a DD machine it was hard to sell a complete working machine for very much money at all.
phonojim wrote:I didn't know they were using new stylus bars. Since the diamond is mounted on a metal piece which is then soldered into the bar (so it appears to me),I would think it a simple matter to produce the new diamond on a mount which could mounted into an old bar. There must be truckloads of old ones out there with broken styli. I think I must have a dozen or so in my junkbox.
Jim
According to sources, the diamond stylus was originally mounted in the bar using an electroplating process. I don't know how the new ones are mounted...
You are correct concerning the electroplating process. However, some years ago I noticed how the stylus bar is made and disassembled some to see whether or not it would be feasible to take a diamond out of a NOS DD bar and insert it into a diamond B bar. It turned out to be way too much trouble with too high a risk of damage to the diamond, so this is as far as it went. Anyway, the diamond is mounted on a small metal cylinder which is then pressed into the stylus bar and, I think, sweat - soldered to hold it in place.
I have provided a photo to illustrate what I mean. Left-to-right are: an original bar as found; an original bar after heating it and pushing the cylinder/stylus part way out and, last an original bar with the cylinder/stylus completely out and sitting by the bar.
Jim
Note: All of the stylus bars used in this experiment were missing their tips, so no actual diamonds were injured.
Attachments
Edison Stylus Bars 2.jpg (378.31 KiB) Viewed 2990 times
phonojim wrote:I didn't know they were using new stylus bars. Since the diamond is mounted on a metal piece which is then soldered into the bar (so it appears to me),I would think it a simple matter to produce the new diamond on a mount which could mounted into an old bar. There must be truckloads of old ones out there with broken styli. I think I must have a dozen or so in my junkbox.
What is the story on diamond cylinder styli? Are there similar problems with those or does the lighter weight of the cylinder reproducers help?
Several years ago, Wyatt's Musical Americana had NOS DD stylus/bar assemblies for sale. Does anyone know if he still has any available? I bought 3 of them for personal stock but I haven't had to use any of them yet. I have several DD reproducers, all with good diamonds and only one DD player, so I'm set for the foreseeable future.
BTW: is it just me or does there seem to be a greater interest these days in DDs and machines than there was say, 15-20 years ago? I don't remember that much interest back then. Even 10 years ago when I last sold a DD machine it was hard to sell a complete working machine for very much money at all.
Jim
I know this is a old thread, but I thought I would chime in on this as Edison DD stylus is very important to us Edison collectors. I must be fortunate, but I have a Amberola 30 and a DD machine, both stylus were purchased from Wyatt's Musical Americana, and both work great. I am not sure what the problems are that collectors are experiencing from EXPERT stylus. It is possible that the stylus from Wyatt's may be original stock.
In any event, regardless of manufacturer, as a collector we do not want to wear or damage our DD's. We must make certain that the diamond stylus is a accurate replacement. I am no expert in stylus but I think that the diamond stylus is probably not the same diamond material used by Edison in original reproducers. If we could ever get something equivalent, I am sure we would be paying more than 150.00 for the stylus.
![[The Talking Machine Forum - For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings]](/styles/we_universal/theme/images/the_talking_machine_forum.png)
