True Tone Diaphragm, a "Listeners Diaphragm".

[Lucius1958]

I may check your diaphragm out for my C-250; as I still haven't heard from another source about theirs...

[mikejk]

Hello, I am new to the site; I have not read anything on the site and this is my first post. The subject is, using a True Tone in a Dance Reproducer as a replacement diaphragm. Two True Tone diaphragms were purchased from Larryh under his Ebay user name "odinbobby", one being his standard model, the other being his two ply or laminated version. It was necessary to use the same reproducer so side by side comparison was not possible. What follows is my trial results that I emailed to Larry. Thanks, Mike


Hello Larry,

The two ply True Tone you sent has been in use for about three weeks now, and the short answer to the test would be that I like it very much ! Of course the short answer is not enough. I went on to compare an original factory diaphragm, to a reproduction paper and cork, to a standard True Tone, to a two ply True Tone. It should be stated that I am very fond of high performance attachments and like using the Dance reproducer on dance records.


Here are the conditions in which I tested. I needed a diaphragm for a Dance reproducer so all the testing concerns the Dance reproducer.
1-- I started with a Dance reproducer in excellent physical condition, with an undamaged, unworn diamond stylus.
2—The Dance was rebuilt using the original diaphragm and new black rubber gaskets. The original diaphragm spring was reconnected as was the stylus bar spring. So we have a Dance set up as per the factory with new gaskets.
3—Used in this state, I found it unimpressive and only slightly louder than a standard head. This is the reason for the quest for a better diaphragm.
4—Next, the diaphragm spring was disconnected. No difference
5— Next, I installed a standard True Tone, now of course with no top diaphragm spring. The results were very good, with plenty of volume, clear sound but a little shrill on the high tones.
6—Next, a new paper and cork diaphragm was installed, again now without the top spring. Good volume, but rather muffled
7—Next, the two ply version of the True Tone you sent was installed, again with no top spring, only the stylus bar spring attached. Here we have some remarkable results, with plenty of volume, crisp clear sound, and a better bass response.
To sum up the differences between the four diaphragms, I would say that for whatever the reason, the original is defective for some reason, maybe just age, and the top diaphragm spring seems to do nothing in my opinion.
The standard True Tone was a marked improvement and worked well, with clear sound and loud volume, but a little shrill, but this was eased by having the lid closed.
The reproduction paper and cork gave a more muffled performance, not bad, just a different kind of sound.
The two ply True Tone gave excellent results, with crisp, clear sound, plenty of volume, and much better bass response. The music is very defined between the different instruments. If I had to say, I would describe it as ‘’ High Definition Edison Music’’.
One more thing to note, and it may be significant. While playing record #50941-R, ‘’When June Comes Along With A Song’’, with the two ply in the Dance, there was a lot of distortion during saxophone passages. Saxophone of all things, but the passages are quite loud. The grooves show no sign of damage or wear, so I decided it was time to disconnect the stylus bar spring and see what happens. The distortion disappeared completely, along with the ringing sound coming from the spring. I will be leaving it that way from now on.
One final thought, and this is just me thinking out loud. I wonder if an overall thicker diaphragm would work, one that is thicker at the outside diameter and the center??
Anyway, out of the four diaphragms, the two ply wins hands down, and I would have no trouble recommending one to anyone needing a replacement for a Dance.
I tried to keep my thoughts to the point, hope I did alright. I have still to try a True Tone in a standard head. All of them are working so well now that I don’t want to mess with them anymore. What I will do is start looking for a standard head to buy, and try the spare True Tone I have now.
Thanks again Larry,
Mike

[Major_Dundee]

Hi all,

I would also like to add that Larry built a "Dance Reproducer" Diaphragm for me earlier in the year. I had purchases a Dance Reproducer and unfortunately, the silk thread broke while disassembly. I had been following Larry's quest for a suitable replacement diaphragm for quite some time. After some correspondance, i shipped him off the reminents of the original Diaphragm, because I wanted to see if he could reproduce the upper hook for the Dance spring. He did just that and I was able to install it with ease.

Now, I can't say if it was was one of his "Standard" or the 2-ply version as stated above. (Larry, maybe you could shed some light here) But what I can say is that it is the best sounding reproducer I have for Jazz and Fox Trots. I compared Larry's Dance Reproducer with two of my other original Edisonic reproducers. I like it better for most records. If anything, it is definately a wonderful replacement for any damaged Edisonic or Dance Diaphragms. I have made some comparison videos, and will post when I can find the time to edit them (lol...we know how that goes!). Anyway, since their is such a small market for a Dance Diaphragm replacement, this is an exceptional replacement that, in my humble opinion, is fantastic!

Chris

[larryh]

Chris,

Yours was the first attempt at a dance reproducer diaphragm using the 2 ply version of the True Tones. It would be interesting to know if any advantage is actually gained by having the upper spring in place. Mikes did not and it appears to be successful as well. Unfortunately I am still without stylus for the edisonic type head I have but would be rather curious to see of it would perform well in that.. With the standard True Tone I found that it seemed to cause excessive volume and thus distortions associated with it. The two ply appears to dampen that quite a bit. I have been playing one for weeks in my only working reproducer at the moment, (three with bad new stylus awaiting hopefully a new source at some point), the one thing I am hearing that I am not sure of is that on operatic vocals I hear a bit of a feedback from the diaphragm that I would guess the originals did not produce? That said I have listened for probably 50 years and rarely heard a classical vocal from edison that was totally devoid of any feedback sound. Pop pieces as mentioned are enhanced by the procedure. The downside is they are more difficult to make (every thing being hand shaped) than the standard True Tone. With the failure rate being much larger to get one that satisfies my goals.

Chris, it would be great to be able to hear your version should you get the time to do so.

Larry

[pughphonos]

I wanted to let everyone know that I received a couple of Larry's diaphragms from him a couple days ago and now have them installed in two of my DD reproducers. I installed his latest design (I believe he calls it his two-ply) in my standard reproducer and it produces the best sound I have ever heard live on a Diamond Disc machine. Clear, vibrant, non-blasting, mellow, and producing a nice range of pitches. Usually one will find that diaphragms can produce only some of those effects--to the exclusion of others. But with Larry's diaphragm I can say that all these characteristics are there simultaneously.

He also sent me one of his earlier, True Tone diaphragms, which I put into my LP reproducer. That produced only a slightly better sound, but Edison LPs are notoriously "sonically thin" and there isn't much bass to tease out of them--even when one plays them via electrical pick-up.

Given the trouble/expense I went through to buy a Schubert Edisonic (with the largest horn ever placed in a DD machine), getting the best diaphragms possible became the next logical step for me. I feel I have now reached that goal. Those who want to get their acoustical DD machines up to their best potential had best get in touch with Larry.

Ralph

[pughphonos]

Hello all. I've just spent nearly another day listening to one of Larry Hollenberg's double-ply diaphragms, which I have installed in my standard DD reproducer. I have never met Larry in person; I only know him though this forum and a series of recent e-mails. But I feel compelled to make the following statement, which is more emphatic than what I posted yesterday.

I'm on my fourth DD machine since 2004 (now have a Schubert Edisonic); have had my share of DD reproducers, with various diaphragms. I'm an extremely fussy audiophile and an employed musician. I now feel, without a doubt, that Larry is likely producing the finest DD diaphragms ever made since Edison's time (and arguably surpassing Edison's own diaphragms). Each of Larry's are hand-crafted, sculpted and sanded, and perhaps the one I have has just "lucked" into sounding as stunning as it does; I also seemed to have tightened it in place just right and dare never adjust it again. But I do feel there is an underlying design and excellence in his products that made such a result possible. It is my belief that his diaphragms are the Stradivari among DD diaphragms and will be more recognized as such in decades to come.

I live in Homewood, Illinois, which is one of Chicago's southern suburbs. I extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to stop by and hear; bring your own DDs if you wish. Trying to capture such an effect via You Tube videos is just impossible; there are too many effects that need to be heard in person.

This opinion of mine is going to be ignored or not viewed by 99.9% of this forum (understandable and fine--we all have different interests). But for those who are truly seeking excellence in Edison DD acoustical sound reproduction, they had best get in touch with Larry while he is still doing this work. Oh, I have played many of my DDs via electric pick-up on my Rek-O-Cut turntable; I feel Larry's diaphragm produces a more vibrant and nuanced effect than even that.

He charges such a modest amount for all the work he puts in (I won't quote what I've paid as I don't want to box him in). If he charged $150 per diaphragm I would pay it, and would stock up on two more of them even at that rate.

OK, I've had my say and it's on the record.

Ralph

[mikejk]

Ralph,
You seemed to be ending up with the same conclusion as many of us who are trying out the True Tone. Mine have been in use for many months now, and they are still satisfying. Maybe you have read my feelings about the True Tone from my post from last August farther up this page. Mike

[pughphonos]

Hi Mike, I had most definitely read your testimony, along with that of others--and that is why I decided to go ahead and contact Larry. He needs encouragement as he's a very modest and self-critical individual--and that's why he's not banging those diaphragms out on a mass-production basis. I believe he rejects more samples than he clears.

Those of us who have these diaphragms know how lucky we are. The reproducer is the heart of the acoustical phonograph--and the diaphragm is the heart of the reproducer. If one likes pieces of furniture, any well-preserved or well-restored phonograph will do. If one wants the best listening experience that can be had from these antiques, the road is steeper.

"For those who have ears to hear, let them hear."

Thank you, Mike, for your posts!

Ralph

[mikejk]

Ralph,
You certainly put it well, there's not much else to say. I would like to add this; after using Larry's True Tone in my Dance reproducer for some time now, it still bothered me that it no longer had the original factory set up, however I don't consider myself a purist. Anyway, I thought maybe I was to hasty in condeming the original Dance diaphragm so I took it apart and removed the True Tone and reinstalled the original diaphragm with top spring and stylus spring. Again I found the performance of the Dance very dissapointing with it's original diaphragm with no where near the volume and clarity and low end responce that it has with the True Tone in it.

With this last test finished, the original diaphragm and springs were removed, and the True Tone went back in the Dance straight away, it simply out performs the original set up.


Larry, if you are reading this, please keep going with the True Tone

Mike

[larryh]

Yes I have been following most of what is said here.. I am happy that people are finding something that makes them pleased with the sound of their Edisons. That was and still is the goal..

Ralph was right, the new two ply is a very difficult diaphragm to master. I had several interested parties the past week and so after taking most of the winter off I decided to work on some for them. Well that has turned into a chore.. I made 8 blanks so to speak. By the time I got though with working on the shapes I had three left.. Of those one is good and only one I would consider excellent and displaying much of the attributes that Ralph an others have heard in them.. I don't know why that is so, but the manner in which they have to be created, all by hand, somehow is much more difficult than the original version was. Those I was able to turn out at a reasonable rate and very seldom had failure as far as the overall sound went. They were for the most part quite good and filled a need for decent sound. When I stumbled into the present version I ran into the opposite. They don't just fall into place an for some reason the construction itself is more difficult and not nearly as pleasing looking when done. Not that that is exactly the point since the sound is the goal, but still I try very hard to get them reasonably nice looking. Its not easy due to the two layers in the central parts where a seam shows from the glue. . I spent over 9 hours and ended up with one I really like.. I can see now why Waltrip said that he got about one out of ten tries to work satisfactorily.

Probably any of them would be a pretty fair improvement over the older diaphragms that have deteriorated sound. However when I get one just so, the difference is pretty striking. I would not say they are perfect because I know they are not.. But they serve a purpose and provide the listener a close to the original sound. An yes at times some music is very near perfect and as described by some the "balance" in the sounds is to my ear what makes them work well.

Generally I like to work on them in decent weather as I found that if I do much sanding in the house I have furniture covered with little yellow specks of dust. I sort of pulled back and quit listing them on ebay when I found the sound of the new version better than the old. But mass producing the sound is difficult so I am not sure where it is leading. I still enjoy hearing from those who liked them and it gives me the drive to keep going. I am hoping once the weather is some warmer that I can get the routine down pat and will have less trouble producing them.

Larry