Diamond Disc vs Edison Needle Cut sound quality controversy

[Lenoirstreetguy]

Stop the presses. I am in error in that last post. Coyote...and thanks for this... gently pointed out that the date I quoted in my post is quite wrong . It's wrong indeed. The date I quoted is the was the date that coupling orders were prepared by the Music Room Committee at Orange. These are listed in the old Edison Discography by Ray Wile rather than the recording date which I'd put my brain in gear I'd have known. If I hadn't been too lazy to pull up the spread sheet I would have known the correct date. So no wonder the recording sounds so good for a dubbing: it isn't one.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm to wash the egg off my face.

Jim

[transformingArt]

Okay, here's a transfer of 1929 Diamond Disc version of Celeste Aida by Giovanni Martinelli - provided by a friend of mine from his decent copy. I don't have the Needle cut version in my hands nor my friend, so I hope someone can share his/her copy and its transfer.

https://www.box.com/s/dbv8vf3wr4aurzoh77im

As I have wrote earlier on this thread, this has multiple sonic issues; muffled high frequencies, hollow and distant overall sound, little bit stressed and too much "Boomy" voice, and last but not least, considerable amount of rumble and other sonic distortions.

[Edisone]

I don't know for a fact what speed the latest Edison DDs and needle cuts were cut at, but I suspect that synchronous motors were used on the lathes simply because they produced consistent speeds that didn't need to be diddled with. The 78.260869 rpm speed is a direct result of using a 92-pole direct drive motor running on 60Hz mains power as done on some modern lathes such as the Neumann models of the 1970s.

78.26 is the speed at which a strobe disc will "stand still" under 60Hz light, that's why it was used. And I doubt that the Edison lathes used ANY electric motors - they still used the old weight-driven lathes, with new recording heads attached. Also, the amps would have been powered by storage batteries, not electric light current.

Many Edison Disc models had the speed control hidden from view & needed a special tool to adjust - changing back & forth between 78 and 80 would have been a difficult chore.

[Wolfe]

78.26 is the speed at which a strobe disc will "stand still" under 60Hz light, that's why it was used. And I doubt that the Edison lathes used ANY electric motors - they still used the old weight-driven lathes, with new recording heads attached. Also, the amps would have been powered by storage batteries, not electric light current.

You jest, surely.

Mr. Electricity (by those days) used not only electric motors on his lathes, but everything else as well.

[Edisone]

No, they absolutely did not use electric motors on the recording lathes, and neither did Victor or Columbia, and all 3 companies powered their amps with storage batteries. The same applies to Columbia, HMV, and other companies in England and Europe. There was no reason to replace the beautifully engineered & STEADY weight-driven motors, and electrical supply HUM was guaranteed to be recorded if they used AC mains current in the amps. That AC was another problem: 60Hz was not yet established as a definite standard. One might find 60, 40, 30, or 25 Hz AC - or even DC at 100,110, 200, 220, or 500 (!) volts. Until the late 1940, my current town was divided between 25Hz & 60Hz AC, 100, 200, and 500 Volts DC (500 was suppled in downtown areas to run elevators). I still find 25 Cycle appliances at rummage sales!

As an aside: when Nikola Tesla (we might call him "Mister A.C.") died in 1943 at his home in the New Yorker Hotel, it was powered by Direct Current which was generated in its own basement.

78.26 is the speed at which a strobe disc will "stand still" under 60Hz light, that's why it was used. And I doubt that the Edison lathes used ANY electric motors - they still used the old weight-driven lathes, with new recording heads attached. Also, the amps would have been powered by storage batteries, not electric light current.

You jest, surely.

Mr. Electricity (by those days) used not only electric motors on his lathes, but everything else as well.

[Wolfe]

Interesting. I thought I read that Edison had began using electric motors at some point.

The gravity weight drives (at various companies) were indeed in use for many years, even through the 1940's in some cases.

[Swing Band Heaven]

No, they absolutely did not use electric motors on the recording lathes, and neither did Victor or Columbia, and all 3 companies powered their amps with storage batteries. The same applies to Columbia, HMV, and other companies in England and Europe. There was no reason to replace the beautifully engineered & STEADY weight-driven motors, and electrical supply HUM was guaranteed to be recorded if they used AC mains current in the amps.

78.26 is the speed at which a strobe disc will "stand still" under 60Hz light, that's why it was used. And I doubt that the Edison lathes used ANY electric motors - they still used the old weight-driven lathes, with new recording heads attached. Also, the amps would have been powered by storage batteries, not electric light current.

You jest, surely.

Mr. Electricity (by those days) used not only electric motors on his lathes, but everything else as well.

I had wondered why any HMV / Decca / Columbia disk from the 20's and 30's has no hum in the recording. It never dawned on me that it might be because they used batteries for their amps. I assumed that they had found a way to filter it out so it wasn't recorded.

[VintageTechnologies]

At least one of Edison's early disc lathes used a spring motor instead of falling weights.

[Viva-Tonal]

Yet at least the two recordings Victor made in the Trinity studio on 28 October 1925 released on blue label 45519 have considerable 60 Hz hum on them!

[martinola]

Yet at least the two recordings Victor made in the Trinity studio on 28 October 1925 released on blue label 45519 have considerable 60 Hz hum on them!

One can get that effect by running a mike cable next to a cable carrying AC power at 60hz. Goodness knows I've had to fight that battle a number of times in the past. It would be interesting to know what the Trinity sessions actually used.

regards,
Martin