The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Amberola wrote:I have a D with a cygnet horn, K reproducer that will let you play anything you want for 900.00.

Thanks, but I am not in the position to plunk down $900 on a machine at this time. Plunking down cash in the threes and then building up the rest over time is the current plan. Easier on the wallet and the marriage that way!

You should be able to find a nice Standard Model D for under $400, perhaps a bit more if fully equipped with reproducers, horn, crane, etc.

So, what is the general price difference between "D" and a Fireside given equal condition?

Jerry B. wrote:The advantage of a Standard D is the fact that they don't have an endgate. The previous Edison models had endgates and there is always a chance of damaging a cylinder if it rubs against the endgate. (Please forgive me if someone already answered this question.) Jerry

I rather prefer machines with an endgate. Why? No bushing to worry about, and there is less friction turning a shaft between centers instead using a bushing. The mandrels also run more true without an end wobble. [Don't try to straighten a slightly bent shaft if your Standard D mandrel has end wobble, the shaft is brittle and will snap like a pretzel. Don't ask me why I know that!]. Yes, you have to be a bit more careful handling the records, but I have never rubbed a cylinder against an endgate in 48 years.

FellowCollector wrote: I suspect that the deletion of the end gate on later model Edisons was a production cost reduction maneuver more than anything else.

The elimination of endgates (along with interior ribs in the cylinders, and mica diaphragms in the reproducers) was mandated when Edison lost the litigation with the New York Phonograph Company.

George P.

VintageTechnologies wrote: I rather prefer machines with an endgate. Why? No bushing to worry about, and there is less friction turning a shaft between centers instead using a bushing. The mandrels also run more true without an end wobble.

I agree with this. Having the shaft ride between two points creates a very level platform for the reproduction of sound which is quieter and with less vibration. The bushings are not as good as the originals and have more play and friction.

The Standard A or B is my pic. If a newbie wants to get involved with the mechanics of the motor, the Standard motor is easy to take apart and assemble again. The motor is sort of modular in design with the gear cluster being bolted together.

phonogfp wrote:
The elimination of endgates (along with interior ribs in the cylinders, and mica diaphragms in the reproducers) was mandated when Edison lost the litigation with the New York Phonograph Company.

George P.

Very interesting George. Did not know that!

BwanaJoe wrote:So, what is the general price difference between "D" and a Fireside given equal condition?

All aspects being equal (including the Standard model D in playing condition) you should be able to find either machine for roughly the same price range: say from $350 to $500. The Fireside is not nearly as common as the Standard model D which is another reason I personally prefer the Fireside. Keep in mind that a Cygnet horn or a nice condition original red Fireside horn (for the Fireside) will add extra value beyond the price range stated as well as a model K or a model O reproducer (these both have 2 and 4 minute styli and are desirable reproducers).

Doug

I totally agree about the vast superiority of the
design of the end-gate machines!

Much much better than the later ones with the long
bushing on the left, and no support at all on the right.

I know this because my workhorse machine is a Standard D
with the bushing. It's an original bushing too, and
I've been nursing it along for 40+ years now using
copious quantities of heavy oil. It's a normal
routine keeping that area mopped up so oil does
not get flung out onto the left end of the
mandrel and then on to the records!

So then when I had the pleasure of servicing the
wonderful brand-new condition model B Standard 2 minute
only machine at the museum in Atlanta, Illinois, I
got to experience how nice it is to have a properly
working, properly adjusted end-gate machine!

As far as how I see things, the elimination of the
end-gate was a giant step backwards as far as
good design goes. We have the bushing type machines
and we manage to live with them, but they really are
not very good to start with. That is a definite case
of starting off with a bad design then putting up
with it for over 100 years afterwards.

Just my rant after dealing with it for most of my life
so far.

Chuck

To my mind, the real benefit of the Standard D is the factory designed/installed 2&4 minute gearing. The 2&4 minute attachments for the A/B/C models were an afterthought to encourage record sales of the 4 minute records. I've always thought the attachment on my Standard B is less robust and touchy than the gearing on my Standard D and F machines. That said, in an ideal world, I wish there were a variant of the Standard D with an end gate. I agree that the endgate is mechanically more stable.

However, if I had to buy just one machine, I'd probably look for a Standard D. Once cleaned and repaired, they perform quite well. Look for one with a cygnet crane bracket already on it (or holes for one)- no need to hack-up a perfectly good hole-less case. A horizontal carrier arm is a non-destructive modification so you can start with an ordinary angled carrier arm if the price is good.

Changing out a swollen center bearing/bushing isn't that difficult or expensive so long as you're careful. You may want to search for bearing replacement on this forum to get an idea if you want to consider doing it yourself. What ever you end up doing, good luck on your adventure!

Regards,
Martin