The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

epigramophone wrote:As has already been pointed out, the speed control is not by Decca. It is by Paillard, as shown in this G.A.Bryan Ltd mid-1920's catalogue.

Thanks for your note and thanks for posting the image, that was interesting! I can see - marked as model 3 - also the brake of my Decca "trench".

Dearest Steve and Carlos, it's somewhat soothing - although sad - to read that the market in UK and France is not so different than here. Indeed I thought that things were a bit better in UK: there are some fairly well-made websites where gramophones are sold on a regular basis. Although I must admit that, when I tried to put my hands on an "external horner" and then wrote to them, I got back pictures that shown rusty gramophones in need of a lot of repairs (or got no reply at all, in at least two cases).

On the other hand, one would think that France is the walhalla of Pathé and vertical records... But a quick check over the French section of that-famous-auction-site reveals that perhaps it isn't so, as Carlos seems to confirm in full.

And now, let's come to our American counterparts... Just kidding! Indeed George we appreciate your solidarity. I have to fully second Steve's and Carlos' sentiments: I'm literally open-mouthed when I see whichever gramophone meeting in the US. Even at the lesser ones we see more gramophones than inside the best specialised museums over here. And - to add insult to injury - those machines are not untouchable items behind a shrine, but one could carry them home by simply paying for them.

Many of the reasons why here things aren't just as florid have been well discussed by Steve. Concerning Italy, I think it has also to be added that - during the gramophone heydays - it was a poor and economically underdeveloped country. Well, to be frank, it has ever been and still is underdeveloped, compared to other European partners, but in those days (before and after WWI) the comparison was even more disheartening. Aside few rich nobles or businessmen, the vast majority of citizens lived on "subsistence economy" even in bigger towns. Gramophones were definitely off of most people's thoughts. Well up to the '20s, strong emigration and other facts like Mussolini's battle for grain confirm that Italy still had unresolved issues even with food - go figure gramophones. I think this explains why also early records are so hard to find. As a counterproof, records issued in the '50s, during the economic boom, can be found everywhere.

Also, aggravating a general lack of sense of history and apathy towards collectionism, Italian houses are very small in average. And apartments aside, few people owns a garage. So it has always been customary (necessary...) for most people to discard old households - like gramophones or tube radios - or to move them to wet cellars or overheated attics, where they had been destroyed anyway and then dumped later.

Marco Gilardetti wrote: I think this explains why also early records are so hard to find. As a counterproof, records issued in the '50s, during the economic boom, can be found everywhere.

Marco, I have bought some nice 10s-20s odeon/fonotipia discs from Italy, so it is not that dismal, at least for some reason people kept them over the decades. Popular music is very scarce, though, I can only find 50s stuff as you say. It is true that I never saw any Italian phonograph or gramophone for sale, even though I have a nice small Italian book about gramophones that show in color photos a significant number of native machines, some of them quite nice-looking. I suspect these machines were all part of a single owner's collection.

Hello Carlos! I also have some Fonotipia records, all of them found "in the wild". I agree they're not literally "impossible" to find, but their proportion compared to records of the '50s is 1 out of 1000 IMHO. For some reason, they also seem to show up more often in foreign countries than in Italy, which is also quite meaningful.

I think the book you mentioned may be this one:



I also own it and it has beautiful pictures of astonishing machines. Unfortunately, excepting HMV Monarchs and other common international standards, I have never seen any of those Italian exclusive models in my entire life, and I ignore where the ones pictured there are kept.

In return, I also got the impression that - although it's not clearly stated anywhere - the whole book may be a monography on a single collection of an anonymous.

Banus Banus Barcelona http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... na#p107824

Marco Gilardetti wrote:Crap-o-s have been consistently aired on italian TV serials. Since 2000 onward there has been basically no TV show set in the belle époque or even the '30s where one or two crap-o-s were not displayed.

It was opera time yesterday evening at the Teatro Regio of Turin. The Choir and Orchestra of China National Centre for the Performing Arts was much awaited in town to play the European Première of Il Ragazzo del Risciò (The Rickshaw Boy) by contemporary composer Guo Wenjing.

Believe it or not, during the dramatic 4th Scene of Act I (Hu Niu reveals to his father Liu Siye that she's pregnant and has to marry Xianzi) a crap-o proudly made a fine show on the central table!

The same gramophone, or what looks like the same, with a different soundbox, is back for sale, now by a well-known reputable dealer - Guido Severijns in Holland.

See http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-SPECIAL ... Sw~OVWyeMb

He claims it is authentic, although possibly custom-made. And he is asking 3 times more than the previous seller ...

Whatever the rights or wrongs of this machine, with a combination of a sloping back-bracket and an oversized soundbox, the needle is running at an alarming angle.
I'm glad that's not playing one of MY records.

I bought this luxurious crapophone, more than 15 years ago when I was begining my collection. So really exists a market for very well done fakes.