The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Django wrote:Restoration never results in an original...

Maybe a book on spotting fakes could be a collaborative effort. There are many skilled and knowledgeable people with different backgrounds within this forum. Chemists, historians, cabinet makers, artists, machinists and engineers to name a few. Long time collectors have undocumented knowledge. As far as I know, there is no go to book to help someone to identify authenticity. Maybe that would be a worthwhile effort. The more years pass, the less history can be documented and educated guesses often replace facts.

With all due respect, I think it's incumbent upon the person buying an artifact to be sure he knows what he's getting. Instead of fostering the notion that a collaborative effort to compile a "book of fakes", why not encourage folks to actually purchase those many current books (written by those whom have spent a lifetime researching and documenting those artifacts) that accurately explain, and decisively illustrate, those artifacts? The folks that collect for the sake of having trophies, but show little interest in historical authenticity can be easy targets for those crooks among the group.

Personally I believe it's the role of organizations and clubs to bring awareness to the hobbyist. The obvious lack of participation in those groups by the greater number of hobbyists involved in "collecting" can be a disservice to us all.

There is no substitute for education; Caveat Emptor after all.

Best,
Fran

fran604g wrote:

Django wrote:Restoration never results in an original...

Maybe a book on spotting fakes could be a collaborative effort. There are many skilled and knowledgeable people with different backgrounds within this forum. Chemists, historians, cabinet makers, artists, machinists and engineers to name a few. Long time collectors have undocumented knowledge. As far as I know, there is no go to book to help someone to identify authenticity. Maybe that would be a worthwhile effort. The more years pass, the less history can be documented and educated guesses often replace facts.

With all due respect, I think it's incumbent upon the person buying an artifact to be sure he knows what he's getting. Instead of fostering the notion that a collaborative effort to compile a "book of fakes", why not encourage folks to actually purchase those many current books (written by those whom have spent a lifetime researching and documenting those artifacts) that accurately explain, and decisively illustrate, those artifacts? The folks that collect for the sake of having trophies, but show little interest in historical authenticity can be easy targets for those crooks among the group.

Personally I believe it's the role of organizations and clubs to bring awareness to the hobbyist. The obvious lack of participation in those groups by the greater number of hobbyists involved in "collecting" can be a disservice to us all.

There is no substitute for education; Caveat Emptor after all.

Best,
Fran

The book suggestion would be more of a guide to knowing what to look for when buying, basically a buyer's guide. Not a valuation or rarity book, but more of a knowing what you are looking at book. It could have a section on traits such as woods, finishes, plating .... There could be a timeline of technology. There could be a section on reproduction machines, another on crap-o-phones and another on reproduction parts and how each affects value. How to spot a Franken-Phone.

I know that there are many good books out there, and I enjoy and study them. It is the small details that a newer collector might miss. It doesn't seem quite fair to tell someone new to the hobby to become an expert before they buy. I agree that there is no substitute for education. I am advocating another tool that would be part of that education. If I had the expertise, I would consider writing it myself, but my knowledge and time are both limited. I would be happy to contribute from the perspective of a Tool and Die Maker and Mechanical Engineer. Any way, it was just a thought.

It seems to me other hobbies have books on how to spoke fakes items, why can't our hobby. I certainly would help

Curt A wrote:One final thought: I personally, don't view Don Gfell or Eduardos horns as "fake" or "reproductions", but rather as modern day originals. This is the same as aftermarket horns made by TeaTray and others in the early days - not made by the original manufacturers, but very desirable upgrades to a plain black horn. These are considered to be collectible in the same sense as the originals and are considered to be originals in their own right...

Another example is reproducers and parts made by Paul Baker, Miroslav Stehlic (hope I spelled that right) and tinfoil machines newly made by other skilled machinists. These parts have a collector following, as well, since certain reproducers made by the aforementioned makers may command a higher price than the originals.... So, who knows - maybe down the road Gfell or Eduardo horns will be considered preferable to the period originals by some collectors.

I really don't foresee ANY future interest in Crap-O-Phones...

I am not sure I can agree with your argument about Eduardo or Gfell horns as they are built identical to the original horns and use decals identical to the original decals. They look for all practical purposes just like the originals. Therefore they are reproductions and not just another after market horn. If they had their own unique dimensions and decals I would agree with you but I think your view strains credibility.

When buying a machine I think it'd wise to ask for a certificate of authenticity.Would doing that protect the public from crapophone swindles?edisonplayer

I have never heard of a certified machine. Does that exist? If someone is willing to forge a machine, I don't believe that they would be past forging a certificate too.

krkey1 wrote:The way to tell those "operas" is to look for a curved notch in the bottom right front of the bedplate. Real operas do not have that feature

Neither do the better of Cecil's fakes.

gramophone-georg wrote: At the risk of sounding trite I am going to say that I am in this hobby for relaxation and enjoyment, not stress and worry.

George, You betcha! With all the stress in our daily lives, and the world in general, we are supposed to enjoy this stuff, not disparage it or worry about things out of our control.

Two thoughts to add to the general discussion:

1. Don't totally write off the significance of crapophones. My first wind-up was indeed an Indian knockoff, that I kept in my office as a display item. 99% of the people who ever looked at it didn't know it wasn't original. And it invariably lit up people's faces, saying something like "I remember my grandpops had one of those!". This crapophone piqued my interest and led to my developing a collection of genuine antique phonographs. One has to start somewhere.

2. I bought this "Frankenphone" at the recent Stanton auction. It has Columbia, Victor, Paillard and other components. Don Gfell, who made the assemblage (and the horn) some 25 years ago was quite proud of it, and as anybody knows, he has a world-class collection like no other. Yet he happily shared every detail with me after I bought it, and congratulated me on the purchase. When it came home recently several collectors looked at it and gave their approval, and my wife (my critic-in-chief) absolutely loved it. So, in my opinion, odd as it is, it has pleased a lot of people in a short period of time. I'm even starting to like it!

Raphael

The Antique Phonograph Society is in the very beginning stages of discussion of an authentication/certification service offered through its web site. This would require input from multiple people with experience in the hobby and/or the specific machine being discussed. Again - it's only at the discussion stage at this point.

As for a book on what to look for/guard against when buying an antique phonograph, my experience has been that a large number of people question the need to buy books when there's a big, free Internet out there. (Even back in the 90s, I found a number of collectors at shows who would balk at a $50 book, yet stroll by our table an hour later happily carrying a hammered Victrola IV missing its crank/sound box/tone arm for which they had paid far more than $50. To each his own...) But the APS has a web site that's receiving around 10,000 hits per month, and an illustrated work on avoiding pitfalls could be posted there.

George P.

fran604g wrote:

Django wrote:Restoration never results in an original...

Maybe a book on spotting fakes could be a collaborative effort. There are many skilled and knowledgeable people with different backgrounds within this forum. Chemists, historians, cabinet makers, artists, machinists and engineers to name a few. Long time collectors have undocumented knowledge. As far as I know, there is no go to book to help someone to identify authenticity. Maybe that would be a worthwhile effort. The more years pass, the less history can be documented and educated guesses often replace facts.

With all due respect, I think it's incumbent upon the person buying an artifact to be sure he knows what he's getting. Instead of fostering the notion that a collaborative effort to compile a "book of fakes", why not encourage folks to actually purchase those many current books (written by those whom have spent a lifetime researching and documenting those artifacts) that accurately explain, and decisively illustrate, those artifacts? The folks that collect for the sake of having trophies, but show little interest in historical authenticity can be easy targets for those crooks among the group.

Personally I believe it's the role of organizations and clubs to bring awareness to the hobbyist. The obvious lack of participation in those groups by the greater number of hobbyists involved in "collecting" can be a disservice to us all.

There is no substitute for education; Caveat Emptor after all.

Best,
Fran

ABSOLUTELY!

Examine machines in museums and other's collections. Buy hulks and parts machines to disassemble and study. Put some time and effort into the hobby. Don't expect others to do all of the work for you. If a collector is uninterested in learning, he can, if he wishes, buy from a reputable dealer who will offer an unlimited return policy for a misrepresented machine. This may be a bit expensive, but is useful for the well-heeled tyro.

As far as the value of reproductions, I remember the excellent reproductions of Victorian Art Glass, (peachblow, Coraline, Crown Milano, etc.) made in Italy at the Murano works before they lost their most skilled workers to Fiat, which were imported frankly as fakes in the 1950s and 1960s by A-A importing in St Louis. Today these reproductions generally sell for quite as much as the Victorian originals, for the work is actually better and more consistent than most originals.

Oh, and I would suspect that if one wanted to buy a machine from a knowledgeable seller who would offer a clear guarantee of authenticity one need not look farther than this thread.