The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

krkey1 wrote:[

What are some features unique to an Eduardo or Gfell horn that would clearly and measurably be useful for distinquishing them from originals? Wood grain? Weight? Diameter? Decal?

Get my question. If the true experts can be tricked I know for one I would be a whole lot less confident with just saying "eyeball it" http://history.howstuffworks.com/histor ... tiques.htm

I bought the Peruvian Opera horn some years ago to replace my original that has a delamination. The only significant difference I can see is that the new horn finish has a lighter/more reddish appearance than the original, which is darker and more towards the brown. Most likely the new one after some years of exposure to light will start to darken and look more like the original.

CarlosV wrote:

krkey1 wrote:[

What are some features unique to an Eduardo or Gfell horn that would clearly and measurably be useful for distinquishing them from originals? Wood grain? Weight? Diameter? Decal?

Get my question. If the true experts can be tricked I know for one I would be a whole lot less confident with just saying "eyeball it" http://history.howstuffworks.com/histor ... tiques.htm

I bought the Peruvian Opera horn some years ago to replace my original that has a delamination. The only significant difference I can see is that the new horn finish has a lighter/more reddish appearance than the original, which is darker and more towards the brown. Most likely the new one after some years of exposure to light will start to darken and look more like the original.

Thank you.

Maybe the answer might be there is no difference so if there is no difference how do we then value wood horns if there is no way to demonstrate originality.

Personally I prefer the repros. Because they are new they just don't have the problems the originals do and are far cheaper. But if I owned an original I think I should be able to get the correct value for an original and be able to explain to people why it is not a repro. That seems very fair to me.

krkey1 wrote:

CarlosV wrote:I've seen the counterexample of your challenge: a fellow collector bought in Germany some three brand-new peacock horns (used in German machines and named so because of the patterns on the horn petals that resemble a peacock feather), still wrapped in wax paper. Their painting was so nice, immaculate and bright that it looked fake, especially if installed on a gramophone. A repainted horn - if the repainting were done some years ago - would look a much better match to an old gramophone. Same as the new horns you mention: some years from their manufacturing they will look as fitting or better than any original horn, and therefore their differences, if noticeable, would be irrelevant to the collector.

That is the ultra rare exception. I have handled mint condition original civil war guns before, but that doesn't mean it is the norm.

You are not speaking for all collectors you are really just speaking for yourself. I know other collectors who will absolutely want to know if a wood horn is original, an Eduardo or a Gfell. So what not gather up the knowledge to tell these collectors. It doesn't hurt none purist such as yourself and it helps purist such as me. There is no down side to this unless you want to misrepresent horn and or machines.

There are differences in construction which anyone who has taken apart original, Gfell and Peruvian horns will have learned. You haven't mentioned the reproduction Victor horns made by Bill White (very nice), or the ones which came out of (I think) Utah some twenty-five years ago (not so nice--heavy things, fiberglas bodies covered with oak veneer), the units sold out of California by Dancer about forty years ago, or the ones made in Britain or on the Continent back in the 1970's. As a rule, Potter Stewart's comment about pornography applies to reproduction horns.

krkey1 wrote:Beautiful, now where are those original horn endcaps you mentioned

They are generally taken from old original horns which have been damaged beyond repair. I probably have a few spares somewhere in my basement which were salvaged after my fire.

Uncle Vanya wrote: There are differences in construction which anyone who has taken apart original, Gfell and Peruvian horns will have learned.

I believe in that, but if it takes a destructive test to discriminate an original from a reproduction, nobody will try it, as it would destroy either a valuable original or an expensive reproduction. There may be subtle differences in the way the petal seams are joined, in the veneers or other detail, but they are not apparent to my non-woodworker eyes, and as another poster mentioned, it would take a survey of samples of the original product line to compile the variations in the horn production throughout the life of the product.

As you mentioned, I have seen a English-made Victor/HMV morning glory horn for sale, properly identified as "old reproduction". It looked well-done to me, and its 40-year age added a nice patina to the painting; I did not do any side-by-side comparison with a bona fide production horn, but my guess is that even today this horn would pass as original based on a visual inspection, which in many cases is all we can do when taking a decision to buy a machine in a fair or an auction.

Not sure of The South American horns but I have had several Gfell horns and they a wonderfully made BUT if you reach inside the horn you can detect a slight flat (er) area on each panel as you run your hand around inside. My Bill White horn does not have this and you can't really see it but you can feel it. The originals were also perfectly round inside too.

Those fiberglass cored horns made 30-40 years ago were made by Bill Moore of Gilroy California. They were ugly and weighed a ton but they were the first attempts at replicating Edison wood horns