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Marco Gilardetti wrote:
Finally, why "waxes" signed by singers were unique to Fonotipia, if Fonotipia and Odeon were the same thing?

Columbia used signatures in the wax on many of their Banner Label recordings and on some of the blue label artists such as Weber & Fields.

WDC wrote:We will probably never agree on this, but I do also keep it with Frank Andrews' statements, which I do find to be much more plausible, especially because the style of a period Fonotipia and Odeon are almost identical. And I mean records made long, long before 1926.

I respect your opinion, but I stand with J.R. Bennett whose research was made in years when people who worked at / recorded for / was in business with / purchased records made by Fonotipia was partly still alive and could be spoken with.

It is absolutely obvious that Fonotipia and Odeon were commercial partners, as Fonotipia distributed Odeon records in Italy and had (part of? all of?) its records pressed and distributed by Odeon abroad. I wouldn't be surprised if the two shared some machinery, when needed. We can also argue that perhaps the machinery with which Fonotipia began its activity was initially purchased by Odeon (they must have purchased their machinery from someone, anyway) and only modified in Italy in order to achieve their unique anti-falsification groove. Right in that occasion, perhaps, the idea of cooperating on different markets was firstly discussed. But, that said, I can't imagine why Fonotipia shouldn't have been a real label, and also why Odeon should have set up such weird affair.

If so, the entire partnership would have been composed by dummies, and I can hardly figure outstanding personalities like composer Umberto Giordano and baron Frederic d'Erlanger accepting/needing to be the straw man of a foreign company. Thousands of records bearing the "made in Italy" declaration should be considered a fraud, without nobody ever complaining. Hundreds of preminent Italian singers should be considered as cheated by a fake company. The Fonotipia venue, which was placed right in the middle of Milan downtown, exactly where the most people possible could see it and access it, had to be a mock-up. The queen mother and the Milan prize panel were fools.

All this only to infer that Fonotipia "looked Italian, but was not Italian", with no other apparent reason rather than speculating. Sorry, but I will apply an Occam's razor here and will firmly stand on what looks so obvious and well known: Fonotipia was an Italian label, specialised in negotiating with Italian opera singers (and with resounding success!), which at least in Italy sold records made in Italy.

I do see it differently with the earlier reference as many early phono resources, especially after WW2, tend to be - mildly said - inaccurate. As you said, many of the involved persons were still alive, so authors would usually just write down what they had to say, often regardless of a basic plausibility check or an actual vintage reference.

But I do respect your opinion on this matter as well and do I may be wrong in the end. That is why I still have some hope that some day first hand primary sources will surface to fix this issue once and for all.

If you want an example of what I meant with lacking of plausibility checks, just have a look at this 1950's promotional film footage, issued by the Ampex Corporation. And this is really as bad as it gets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Q1T_2 ... be&t=6m50s

For a start to do some unbiased research: Google for Gloetzner + Fonotipia

Starkton wrote:For a start to do some unbiased research: Google for Gloetzner + Fonotipia

Again, in my opinion, this argument can be used both sides.

German-biased people would read it as the final proof that Fonotipia personnel was German and provided by Odeon.

Italian-biased people would simply note that Gloetzner moved and worked all over the planet and recorded for basically all of the existing companies, acting as what today we would call a free-lance professional.

I chose Gloetzner, because Dutch expert Hugo Strötbaum, who is neither German- nor Italian-biased, collected much useful information about this excellent recording engineer on his website "recording pioneers": http://www.recordingpioneers.com/RP_GLOETZNER2.html

Marco Gilardetti wrote:

WDC wrote:Unfortunately, it is a quite persistent myth that Fonotipia was an independent label. Another good hint is the exact match of the 'groove design' which is identical to a period Odeon.

It's funny that you write this, because J.R. Bennett in his fundamental work "Dischi Fonotipia - A Golden Treasury", 1953, concludes exactly the opposite from the same observations. He reports that Fonotipia had an engraving techinque of its own which was unique to itself, and was intentionally deployed in order to easily recognise fake records pressed by others. He also adds that, when Fonotipia was finally absorbed by Odeon in 1926, then this technique began to appear also on some Odeon's records (that is: Odeon was using machinery that formerly belonged to Fonotipia).

I have Bennett's book from 1953, but couldn't find anything about, what you call, Fonotipia's engraving technique. Are you sure you didn't take this misinformation from wikipedia?

What you describe is the "Kennlinie", a short gap marked by a widely spaced groove which the International Talking Machine Co. m.b.H. used since late 1907 to protect its Odeon, Fonotipia and Jumbo recordings from piracy. Here is an advertisement, published in Phonographische Zeitschrift in the issue of 20 October 1908.

If you re-read it and it's not there, I don't remember where I read it I'm afraid, possibly on some period advertisement or another Italian essay. However, the wording was very involute and I didn't even understand how this technique was deployed (I'm not a pressing expert, either), it could have been the Kennlinie or not, I really don't know. I have to admit that the advertisement that you posted scored a +1 for those who believe that Fonotipia = Odeon, although again this is a foreign advertisement and we all know that foreign Fonotipias were pressed by Odeon. In which year was this ad issued? I ask because another thing that I seem to remember by Bennet's book is that by the end of WWI (that is: much earlier than the often mentioned 1925 or '26) Odeon in some way already took control of Fonotipia, and the author commented that the records had a quality drop and became to be dull and uninspiring.

Marco Gilardetti wrote: I ask because another thing that I seem to remember by Bennet's book is that by the end of WWI (that is: much earlier than the often mentioned 1925 or '26) Odeon in some way already took control of Fonotipia, and the author commented that the records had a quality drop and became to be dull and uninspiring.

In 1911, Carl Lindström A.G., Berlin, bought the majority of Fonotipia. Perhaps you don't know that Fonotipia was in British possession since April 1906.


The ad above was issued on 20 October 1908.

Here is a scan of a Fonotipia pressing with "Kennlinie", see arrow, recorded 11 November 1907 in Milan.

Can this discussion be taken to its own thread now?

So now it wasn't even German, it was British. All right. Thank you very much gentlemen, it has been a pleasant conversation. I quit.