The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! (I will jump in on the value topic a bit.)

I respect your view Brian, and agree with almost all of what you have said. I do have a question with regards to a couple things you have said. You mentioned in this thread, among many others, that value is what something sells for in the current market. Or even more generally speaking, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at that given point in time. I think everyone is in agreement on that point.

That being said, one of the members participating in this thread mentioned that he knows of at least one that has sold for a price in the 6 figure range. For the sake of my question we will make things easy and say it sold for at least $100,000.

Those things being said, I am confused about your comment suggesting that buying this phonograph at half of the price it is currently listed for still wouldn't be a deal. I know that there are many factors that contribute to value, and that because of this, two phonographs that are the same exact model can sell for different amounts. But I must say that, again this is only my opinion, if I was offered the phonograph we are discussing for $67,500, (half the current price listed) knowing that another sold for at least $100,000 in the not to distant past, that I could comfortably say that I would be getting a good deal.

Granted, if given the above opportunity I wouldn't by any means have the funds to buy it. But for the sake of the direction this thread turned, your comment was conflicting. You say a phonograph is worth only what someone "with the means" is willing to pay. We have an example of someone with the means willing to pay somewhere in the 6 figure range. So ballpark value based off of this logic would suggest this phonograph to be worth $100,000 or more. If that's the case, how could buying one for $67,500 not be a great deal?

SonnyPhono wrote:If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! (I will jump in on the value topic a bit.)

I respect your view Brian, and agree with almost all of what you have said. I do have a question with regards to a couple things you have said. You mentioned in this thread, among many others, that value is what something sells for in the current market. Or even more generally speaking, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at that given point in time. I think everyone is in agreement on that point.

That being said, one of the members participating in this thread mentioned that he knows of at least one that has sold for a price in the 6 figure range. For the sake of my question we will make things easy and say it sold for at least $100,000.

Those things being said, I am confused about your comment suggesting that buying this phonograph at half of the price it is currently listed for still wouldn't be a deal. I know that there are many factors that contribute to value, and that because of this, two phonographs that are the same exact model can sell for different amounts. But I must say that, again this is only my opinion, if I was offered the phonograph we are discussing for $67,500, (half the current price listed) knowing that another sold for at least $100,000 in the not to distant past, that I could comfortably say that I would be getting a good deal.

Granted, if given the above opportunity I wouldn't by any means have the funds to buy it. But for the sake of the direction this thread turned, your comment was conflicting. You say a phonograph is worth only what someone "with the means" is willing to pay. We have an example of someone with the means willing to pay somewhere in the 6 figure range. So ballpark value based off of this logic would suggest this phonograph to be worth $100,000 or more. If that's the case, how could buying one for $67,500 not be a great deal?

just because machine A sold for, say, 100k doesn't mean that machine B - being basically the same thing - is worth the same, rather, that someone would be willing to pay 100k for it too. disregarding all the other variables, like the time, the economy, the context of the sale, the heat of the moment, its effect on whoever may have been participating, etc., for one, they're not the same machine. but more to the point, the buyer of A may have just been the only person will to spend 100k at the time, who knows? basically, what I was saying (I think you twisted my words a little, but no matter) was that the selling price of A can only really be used as a gauge for assisting in the value determination of B, while also factoring into the equation numerous other variables...

either way, though, say you bought B for 67,500... well, you paid less than the buyer of A paid for A, but who cares if in the end, no one will ever buy B from you for more than, say, 50,000. it's only a "good deal" as you're describing it if the price you pay is less than what others are willing to, but that's assuming that there are in fact others willing to pay.

I will bite and will write again for the sake of "debating", rather than arguing.

First, the entire first paragraph of your reply is basically restating what I had written in my previous post. I made sure to mention that I understand the factors that attribute to a fluctuation in market value. Here is one example from my post:

"I know that there are many factors that contribute to value, and that because of this, two phonographs that are the same exact model can sell for different amounts."

So it didn't help to answer my question.

Secondly, so I don't twist your words, here is the second part of your reply:

"either way, though, say you bought B for 67,500... well, you paid less than the buyer of A paid for A, but who cares if in the end, no one will ever buy B from you for more than, say, 50,000. it's only a "good deal" as you're describing it if the price you pay is less than what others are willing to, but that's assuming that there are in fact others willing to pay."

Like you have said before, past prices can only be guides for values, and many factors must be taken into account to to make sure you don't overpay. I am merely saying that $100,000 would be a "ballpark value" based off of a recent achieved sale price. At any rate, $32,500 below this ballpark that we have established should still provide some comfortability in the fact that you are on the receiving end of a good deal, even factoring in the variables that I originally acknowledged.

Bottom line, we will have to leave it as you stated. To each their own.

SonnyPhono wrote:I will bite and will write again for the sake of "debating", rather than arguing.

First, the entire first paragraph of your reply is basically restating what I had written in my previous post. I made sure to mention that I understand the factors that attribute to a fluctuation in market value. Here is one example from my post:

"I know that there are many factors that contribute to value, and that because of this, two phonographs that are the same exact model can sell for different amounts."

So it didn't help to answer my question.

Secondly, so I don't twist your words, here is the second part of your reply:

"either way, though, say you bought B for 67,500... well, you paid less than the buyer of A paid for A, but who cares if in the end, no one will ever buy B from you for more than, say, 50,000. it's only a "good deal" as you're describing it if the price you pay is less than what others are willing to, but that's assuming that there are in fact others willing to pay."

Like you have said before, past prices can only be guides for values, and many factors must be taken into account to to make sure you don't overpay. I am merely saying that $100,000 would be a "ballpark value" based off of a recent achieved sale price. At any rate, $32,500 below this ballpark that we have established should still provide some comfortability in the fact that you are on the receiving end of a good deal, even factoring in the variables that I originally acknowledged.

Bottom line, we will have to leave it as you stated. To each their own.

jesus. I regret the wordiness of my previous response. the bottom line in terms of how I see it is that for rare items such as this where few if any come up for sale, it's difficult to really determine a "ballpark value" or market value - just because one sells for a given price doesn't make that a market value, which is more of an average or typical selling price based on numerous past sales (say, for a VV-XI, $200 to $400 depending on condition, etc.).

regardless, you're considering the 67,500 buy a good deal solely because someone else paid 100,000 for the last one that sold. all I said was that to me, it's still not such a great deal IF - even though you paid 67,500 for a machine similar to one that previously sold for 100,000 - no one else was really interested in buying that machine for 67,500 when you bought it, nor would be willing to buy it from you later for 67,000 or 50,000 or whatever. that to me wouldn't be such a great deal (in the sense that, you paid less than the first guy, so what, you both overpaid because no one else is willing to pay that much). that's what I was getting at in terms of my reasoning. my gut reaction remains that 135k is an obscene amount of money for a phonograph.

JohnM wrote:$75K for a Moorish-marquetry VTLA/L-door XVI (not sure which model it actually is) at auction back in about 2001 is the highest price of which I'm aware.

VTLA. Stunning machine, even the inside of the horn is inlaid.

Even so, the reason that the Moorish Marquetry machine fetched such a price was because it was one of the largest pieces of classical Moorish Marqetry extant.

The underbidders were buying Islamic Art, not a talking machine.

I suspect that had the piece been a more ordinary cabinet rather than a Victrola it would have sold for even more.

I agree completely Brian, 135,000 clams is a lot for a phonograph. And I would be willing to side with you in the fact that it probably wont receive a bid. I was just hassling ya' for the sole purpose of a good debate! I hope you didn't take any of it personally, as I agree with your point of views on this.

On a different note, John mentioned that maybe the price is due to amount of time/money spent refinishing it. That could definitely be one possibility. Here is another that I don't think was mentioned. The price could be high due to emotional attachment of some sort. I don't collect antique radios but I do have one. It's my Grandfather's 1925 Freshman Masterpiece that I inherited when he passed about 5 years ago. You could find one of these for about $200 as they are fairly common. But with risk of sounding a bit cheesy, it's near priceless to me. I was really close to him and the radio sat in the living room where we spent countless hours together.

Or, maybe the seller is taking a shot in the dark and knows that the price is a little steep, but may get that impulsive, (and wealthy) person to buy it. If it sells, great! If not, he would still have an awfully nice phonograph on his hands. He probably isn't in financial dire straights judging by some of the machines in the video. Who knows?!

SonnyPhono wrote:I agree completely Brian, 135,000 clams is a lot for a phonograph. And I would be willing to side with you in the fact that it probably wont receive a bid. I was just hassling ya' for the sole purpose of a good debate! I hope you didn't take any of it personally, as I agree with your point of views on this.

On a different note, John mentioned that maybe the price is due to amount of time/money spent refinishing it. That could definitely be one possibility. Here is another that I don't think was mentioned. The price could be high due to emotional attachment of some sort. I don't collect antique radios but I do have one. It's my Grandfather's 1925 Freshman Masterpiece that I inherited when he passed about 5 years ago. You could find one of these for about $200 as they are fairly common. But with risk of sounding a bit cheesy, it's near priceless to me. I was really close to him and the radio sat in the living room where we spent countless hours together.

Or, maybe the seller is taking a shot in the dark and knows that the price is a little steep, but may get that impulsive, (and wealthy) person to buy it. If it sells, great! If not, he would still have an awfully nice phonograph on his hands. He probably isn't in financial dire straights judging by some of the machines in the video. Who knows?!

no big deal, nothing personal in these discussions.

I actually bought a machine from this seller in the past - based on what he told me, he mainly just does the buying and selling, no repairs or real restoration... I don't even think he's really into the collecting either. pretty much what he sells, as I understood it from talking to him at the time, is as it is when he found it. so I would be surprised if he's got much money into the restoration of this machine - I'd be more inclined to think that he's either selling it for someone else (who owns the stuff in the youtube video) or else picked it up at an auction or estate sale and is just flipping it.

I'd definitely agree though that he's taking that shot in the dark with the steep price to see if he just might be able, with something very rare and unusual, to entice someone with money to blow on something that's somewhat difficult to put a price on (numerically speaking, as the thing itself - unlike your freshman masterpiece, or the pocketwatch my great-grandfather brought with him when first emigrating from lithuania - is by no means priceless).

How does it work on eBAY if you list something for $135,000 and you don't sell it? Will the guy have to pay some huge fee?

Valecnik wrote:How does it work on eBAY if you list something for $135,000 and you don't sell it? Will the guy have to pay some huge fee?

Not anymore... everybody gets 5 free listings every month... free some insertion fees that is... they just take a bigger cut in the end.

Separately, this seller is abusing what I mentioned in the other thread... it's listed as "free shipping" when clearly local pick-up is not the same, nor free. I believe your auction is more prominently featured when you use the free shipping auction so it is an abuse.

surprise, doesn't appear to have sold. I wonder whether it will be relisted for 134,000.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT