The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Why not have an online virtual show...?

Sure, it's fun to see stuff in person, but the logistics for sellers and buyers is ridiculous. You have to pack everything up, maybe rent a truck, travel hundreds of miles, stay in hotels, spend thousands of dollars on a gamble that you will sell the stuff you brought along. For many, it's a tradeoff, you "give away" stuff just to break even with expenses. Then you have to lug the stuff that didn't sell back home. There could be an offshoot business for some people who have time to do pick ups and deliveries or professional packing...

Sellers could have individual pages that they would purchase in lieu of actual "tables" or spaces to list and picture their stuff (photographed by capable photographers) and no additional buyers premiums or seller fees. Potential buyers would have to pay an "admission" fee to log into the site, which would be accessed by password from a single specific computer or device registered to the buyer. The access fee would be more on the first day or could be one price for the entire event. It could be done several times a year with no problem. This would mean that no one in the hobby would have to miss any of the shows because of distance, schedules, expenses, etc. - you could buy stuff from the privacy of your room in the nursing home... Sponsoring groups would not have the ridiculous overhead and responsibility to rent venues to host the shows, which is getting more difficult and expensive each year.

It would not be an online auction, all sellers would have to list their prices and post them with the items... no sellers soliciting "offers" without prices. Of course, sellers could negotiate with a potential buyer on lowering the final prices. This would also eliminate some of the problems of getting buyers who have money to spend, to the event without having to waste time and money on travel, etc. Even thought the collecting community is small, there are a lot of serious collectors who have never attended a show because of time constraints, etc.

Individual groups could also have supplemental get togethers during the year to accommodate those collectors whose main interest is social...

Curt A wrote:Why not have an online virtual show...?

Sure, it's fun to see stuff in person, but the logistics for sellers and buyers is ridiculous. You have to pack everything up, maybe rent a truck, travel hundreds of miles, stay in hotels, spend thousands of dollars on a gamble that you will sell the stuff you brought along. For many, it's a tradeoff, you "give away" stuff just to break even with expenses. Then you have to lug the stuff that didn't sell back home. There could be an offshoot business for some people who have time to do pick ups and deliveries or professional packing...

Sellers could have individual pages that they would purchase in lieu of actual "tables" or spaces to list and picture their stuff (photographed by capable photographers) and no additional buyers premiums or seller fees. Potential buyers would have to pay an "admission" fee to log into the site, which would be accessed by password from a single specific computer or device registered to the buyer. The access fee would be more on the first day or could be one price for the entire event. It could be done several times a year with no problem. This would mean that no one in the hobby would have to miss any of the shows because of distance, schedules, expenses, etc. - you could buy stuff from the privacy of your room in the nursing home... Sponsoring groups would not have the ridiculous overhead and responsibility to rent venues to host the shows, which is getting more difficult and expensive each year.

It would not be an online auction, all sellers would have to list their prices and post them with the items... no sellers soliciting "offers" without prices. Of course, sellers could negotiate with a potential buyer on lowering the final prices. This would also eliminate some of the problems of getting buyers who have money to spend, to the event without having to waste time and money on travel, etc. Even thought the collecting community is small, there are a lot of serious collectors who have never attended a show because of time constraints, etc.

Individual groups could also have supplemental get togethers during the year to accommodate those collectors whose main interest is social...

All excellent points... I am in agreement. I guess there are some who really enjoy the social aspect and fellowship with other collectors. I get that. But, from a practical and financial standpoint, I would go hundreds of dollars in the negative to even consider loading up some of my "stuff" and bringing to a show.... IF IT EVEN SELLS with the strange state of our hobby and the antiques market in general right now... just my two cents.

Curt A not sure I understand your plan. Right now you can post all the pictures your stuff on the Yankee Trader with prices with no selling fees or admission fees. We can do everything on Yankee Trader that your talking about. What is the need for starting something new. Am I missing something????

Rich Gordon

Buying high end machines is something I am normally pretty soft on sight unseen. Even with pictures. If I am going to spend big money I want to touch it and know what it is actually like before spending the money. There are ,of course, exceptions. When a very reputable person that I already know is selling remotely I have a certain amount of trust in them. But, attending a show with good quality high end machines is something that simply cannot be replaced with any online venue. At least not to me. Knowing people and their reputations is something that takes time and investment.

I have developed friends and contacts over the last 20 years at shows like Union. I know exactly who I am dealing with there most of the time. And, if I don't know them, it is very likely someone else there that I know does know them. Just a better experience. If I had to only participate in the hobby online I would just sell everything and move on. It would ruin it for me to have to do it in isolation.

Now we are in an unusual and scary time, so adjustments need to be accomodated. But, for me, the hobby will only continue to be fun if I can attend shows and see my friends. In the meantime I will buy smalls and an occasional machine from friends, but things will slow way down for me.

I am optimistic about other shows that will eventually be open again. But, sad at the potential of missing the last Union show. To me it would be a true tragedy. Damn virus!

My 2 cents...

It's not a one-size fits all situation. There will be those that like shows, either as an exhibitor or attendee, and those that could care less and are content just buying or selling on line.

Down here in Florida we have two big antique shows early in the year that have astronomical overhead costs. A minimal booth at the Miami Beach show in January will run about $5,000 to $7,000+, and when coupled with the costs of fixtures, travel, shipping, hotels, it's easy for an out-of-towner to drop $15,000.

The Palm Beach Show makes the Miami Beach people look like pikers. The booths run anywhere from $15,000 upwards; some dealers drop $75,000. Just for the booth.

Yet, the same dealers come back, year after year. Why? Because the clientele is there, and they make the sales that cover the overhead, and then some.

I mainly attend these two shows to pick up clocks from dealers that I know very well, and they judge their show success not only by their sales, but by the opportunity to buy more stuff for their own inventory. The stuff has to keep going round-and-round, and for every sale they need another piece to replace it.

"The show must go on".

Raphael

Wow, I never knew that a show could charge fees like that just for a booth. I'd go broke fast there! They're probably not even going to have show this year. I guess it would be the Amelia Island of antiques.

rgordon939 wrote:Curt A not sure I understand your plan. Right now you can post all the pictures your stuff on the Yankee Trader with prices with no selling fees or admission fees. We can do everything on Yankee Trader that your talking about. What is the need for starting something new. Am I missing something????

Rich Gordon

Not all potential buyers/collectors are members of the Forum and are unaware of the Yankee Trader section. I have heard sellers at shows complain that there are not enough buyers from outside the hobby and that stuff is just shuffled from one collector to another. You are right about that issue of listing items here with no fees, so why worry about Union going away or other shows being cancelled? Honestly, no one needs to go to any event to collect stuff, there's Yankee Trader, eBay, Craigslist, Facebook Market, Stantons, etc. The only reason I mentioned this virtual show is for those people who like scheduled "events" and like to plan for them and also want to buy from specific sellers...

I read Raphael's description of south Florida shows and find those to be outrageously overpriced. At $15,000-$75,000, you need to "give away" a lot of high end stuff before you break even with the overhead, so I don't see how that ever adds up to making a profit unless the stuff was way overpriced to begin with. I personally think that the less overhead, the better... however, that doesn't account for snob appeal. If I attended those shows as a buyer, I would automatically assume that I was being ripped off by the prices necessary to support such an endeavor... However, if I had more money than I knew what to do with and liked to attend those types of snob events, I guess it wouldn't matter what I had to pay as a seller or buyer, because the "value" is just in attending along with bragging rights... Your mindset would have to be that it's more important "where I bought an item, than what I actually bought..."

Thanks for all the opinions and views. I decided not to visit any shows this year. This is only a hobby and I've totally quarantined my family for the last 7 weeks. I'm not going to throw that away at this point. I'll just sit in the corner scraping the bottom of a soup can, and pray for better days. That's a long time from now.

D. Edwards

phonotim wrote:Regarding a replacement for union. Lynn Bilton had announced a new show to take place in the Cleveland Ohio area the week before Union. Ron Sitko was distributing his advertising flyers for him. Apparently Lynn had the thing booked and ready to go. However, I rather think that the virus situation has put the kibosh on this new venue. Clearly, Lynn intended his show to take over for union. I would expect him to attempt to revive his plans next year. Thank you George for your efforts to keep our hobby fun, at a time when a lot of us are not feeling very fun-like.

Cleveland? That's another:
- ~6 or 7 hours east of Union.
- ~6 or 7 hours further East for those that come from the West Coast
- Only 6 or 7 hours from Wayne, NJ

Pretty sure I won't be attending that one.

Curt A wrote:

rgordon939 wrote:Curt A not sure I understand your plan. Right now you can post all the pictures your stuff on the Yankee Trader with prices with no selling fees or admission fees. We can do everything on Yankee Trader that your talking about. What is the need for starting something new. Am I missing something????

Rich Gordon

Not all potential buyers/collectors are members of the Forum and are unaware of the Yankee Trader section. I have heard sellers at shows complain that there are not enough buyers from outside the hobby and that stuff is just shuffled from one collector to another. You are right about that issue of listing items here with no fees, so why worry about Union going away or other shows being cancelled? Honestly, no one needs to go to any event to collect stuff, there's Yankee Trader, eBay, Craigslist, Facebook Market, Stantons, etc. The only reason I mentioned this virtual show is for those people who like scheduled "events" and like to plan for them and also want to buy from specific sellers...

I read Raphael's description of south Florida shows and find those to be outrageously overpriced. At $15,000-$75,000, you need to "give away" a lot of high end stuff before you break even with the overhead, so I don't see how that ever adds up to making a profit unless the stuff was way overpriced to begin with. I personally think that the less overhead, the better... however, that doesn't account for snob appeal. If I attended those shows as a buyer, I would automatically assume that I was being ripped off by the prices necessary to support such an endeavor... However, if I had more money than I knew what to do with and liked to attend those types of snob events, I guess it wouldn't matter what I had to pay as a seller or buyer, because the "value" is just in attending along with bragging rights... Your mindset would have to be that it's more important "where I bought an item, than what I actually bought..."

With all due respect, I think you missed my point entirely. To begin with, I was in no way suggesting that these shows would be economically viable for phonograph people. But, there are plenty of deep-pocketed buyers out there who care more about obtaining a top-quality item then scouring the world for a bargain. I've seen these folks at auctions, buying what they want, regardless of the price. At the Milhous Auction in Boca Raton a few years back, I watched a bidder casually sipping a cocktail at the bar while chatting up a friend, and simultaneously holding his bidder card up. And when he won the piece (a $150,000 chandelier) somebody had to come over and interrupt his chit-chat to get his bidder #. He didn't even ask what the hammer price was.

Raphael