The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

scullylathe wrote:

What are the titles on the Waring record that sparked this discussion?

It actually got sidetracked, but it all has to do with the quality and amount of room ambiance or reverb on early electrics. And nobody's really come up with a GOOD explanation of the foghorn-like noise on Whitey Kaufman's "Paddelin' Madeline Home".

scullylathe wrote:I'm also not looking for a pissing contest either, that's not my intent in any situation, but sixty years ago someone who had thoroughly researched sound recording up to the time and back then more than likely talked to people who were actually there in the 20's and did not rely on print materials or internet articles with less than reliable information, published this information:

The Recording and Reproduction of Sound, Dr. Oliver Read, 1952
Page 16 -
"The earliest forms of electrical pickups were of the carbon or magnetic types. In 1927, a new pickup was introduced which relied on the capacity effect of its elements. Both the carbon and the magnetic types of pickup, although superior to the old acoustical pickups, were far from perfect and their faults were many."

Even the photo you reference with the closeup of the microphone has the same "guts" as mine - and I know it's a carbon NOT a condenser. The earliest WE condensers looked like this:



Well, WJAX, the broadcast station of the Union Savings and Trust Company, of Cleveland, was fitted with a 500 watt Western Electric transmitter, and by December of 1925 they were using condenser microphones in their main studio, 394 elements in Type one housings, with the preamplifiers in boxes on which the mice sat. The early use of condenser transmitters in this studio was confirmed to me personally by the fellow who was their engineer at the time, the late Bill Demeter. I still have one of the condenser microphone assemblies in storage. note, too that the Vitaphone work, as early as the recording of the shorts for Don Jaun was using condenser transmitters.


I think that's a 9A, 8A and 394/47A (not exactly sure of the models) and here is my carbon mic and D-spec recorder with the mic showing the same internal parts as the one you reference as being a condenser, but is stamped on the internal element "Western Electric 600A" which is a carbon mic similar to the 387:



The box the mic is sitting on in your photo is not a condenser preamp (as contained in the large housings of the 8/9A's or the 47A enclosure with the 394) but contains the battery and transformer for the carbon mic.

I've done extensive research for nearly 30 years as both a hobbyist and scholar and all indications are that the very first Western Electric disk recording installations used a carbon mic. Condenser theories, patents and some prototypes yes, did exist since the teens but condensers weren't used for recording until 1927 to help remedy the issues with the carbon mics. Your friend claims the mic pictured in the housing to be a WE 394; the element is round, but the resemblance ends there and the 394 was never sold or mounted in a 1B housing.

I think if you play something like George Olsen's "Hot Aire" or "Knee Deep in Daisies" recorded in August of 1925 (and other Victors of that approximate time period) it's obviously an electric recording, but to me has a "hooty" sound to it (but not reverb), which I attribute to a carbon mic being used in a studio that is still not treated properly for electric recording and follows acoustics more appropriate for mechanical recording. Compare that with something like Ted Weems "Marvelous" from August of 1927 and to me the sound is richer, leading me to believe that the condenser was in place by then, but not in 1925. Personnel are similar in number and Victor did at times add studio musicians here and there to 'flesh out' smaller units, but the sonic difference in these two recordings and the dates seem to indicate two different mics in use.

As for my original post about the Fred Waring record, yes, played back electrically the reverb is more palatable than on an Orthophonic.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now