The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

This is a fascinating thread. Here's another variation. This is the first Canadian Berliner label before they changed to the maroon shellac compound with a brass insert at the spindle hole, but those are a little late to be called Berliners like these. This one actually just gets in under the wire. It's a wax master, is it not? So it's a Consolidated Talking Machine master, or is it a late real Berliner? George or one of you Berliner experts can tell me, no?
Jim

Starkton wrote:In the September 1899 Phonoscope issue, published in December 1899, Emile Berliner accused the American Talking Machine of pirating his masters - quite rightly as could be proved with following specimen.

Starkton,

Very nice display of three different discs with the same song, and especially the legitimate Berliner version with the pirated Vitaphone version! Through the kindness of Paul Cleary in the UK, I was able to compare the English Berliner recording of "Rice's Ragtime Opera" (Guitar & Mandolin duet by the Musical Avolos; recorded in London, May 4, 1899) from English Berliner 7350 with a red Vitaphone disc (No.1800) which I have here. (This disc is illustrated in a Berliner article found in a 2006 issue of the Sound Box, beginning on page 11, which can be downloaded for free at http://www.ca-phono.org.) As you found, the recordings are identical, so Albert Armstrong and Joe Jones were copying American and English Berliners for their Vitaphone discs. I'm happy to learn for certain that American Berliners were indeed copied - - until today I was unaware of any specific examples.

Thanks for sharing that!

Best,
George P.

Lenoirstreetguy wrote:This is a fascinating thread. Here's another variation. This is the first Canadian Berliner label before they changed to the maroon shellac compound with a brass insert at the spindle hole, but those are a little late to be called Berliners like these. This one actually just gets in under the wire. It's a wax master, is it not? So it's a Consolidated Talking Machine master, or is it a late real Berliner? George or one of you Berliner experts can tell me, no?
Jim

Steve Porter did record "On The Banks of the Wabash" for Berliner in New York (No.1784Z), but this was remade later by Albert Campbell (No.1784W), so it seems unlikely that your Canadian pressing would have been made from an American Berliner stamper. The Consolidated origin is a better bet.

George P.

gramophoneshane wrote:Wow! I had no idea there were so many label variations on Berliners. "IF" I've counted right, there's 14 so far.

There's another label identical to the March 1895 record I posted, but reads, "...other Parents applied for." No kidding!

George P.

Neophone wrote:I'm with Bill in thinking the poor condition of many of these early records is partially to blame on the early front mount tone-arms and primitive reproducers. I remember another knowledgeable collector telling me back when I first got into this hobby that many of the earliest disc records I'd find would have the very beginning heavily worn-partially due to the honing of the needle, but mostly due to the bad tracking of the front mount machines. Has anyone else noticed or heard of this?

Regards,
John

John,
Absolutely! The Berliner sub-master plays quite well, and the two Berliner test pressings I alluded to (illustrating one) play excellently. I'm afraid that the growling evidenced by most of our surviving Berliner records is the result of the shellac-eaters they were played upon.

Years ago I was fortunate enough to obtain 25-30 early 7" Zonophone discs from 1900-1901, most of which bear the etched "shield label." For whatever reason, these discs were in virtually brand-new condition, and the sound is startlingly good. 7" discs just don't usually sound so good! Once again, these were obviously spared the front-mount talking machines of the day...

George P.

phonogfp wrote:There's another label identical to the March 1895 record I posted, but reads, "Other Parents Applied For." No kidding!

I imagine that this particular typo might make demand to have a copy pretty high—an image of that would be very interesting to see in this thread.

I take it that the Berliner company was very interested in finding homes for their records children.

— MordEth

I really hate to admit defeat at the hands of an arbitrary, ornery cyberspace...

Alright, Photobucket...take THAT!


...And THAT!


Whew...that felt good! These should have been in earlier postings, but...

Finally, Bruce showed a nice oak Berliner record storage box. Here's the other variation of these Hawthorne & Sheble oak record storage boxes. Plain base moulding; illustrated in Eldridge Johnson catalogues:



And here's a pasteboard Berliner record box that shows up pretty infrequently:



Thanks for the kind comments, and I hope everyone enjoys what I posted as much as I've enjoyed what everyone else has posted! Great topic!

George P.

I wonder who's handwriting on these discs has survived the generations.

In this older thread, I introduced a brick red pirate pressing of The American Talking Machine Co. But, since 1897, it also acted as perfectly legal trade partner of William Barry Owen, ex-National Gramophone Co., in London, nicely demonstrated by the dealer's plate on an early Berliner trademark machine above.

Starkton,

The American Talking Machine Company was operating a retail operation in London, right? In other words, the ATMCo wasn't in "partnership" with Owen or the Gramophone Company beyond being a retail outlet, much like Harrod's. I'm asking because of my limited knowledge of overseas talking machine operations.

George P.