Victor VTLA (XX) Victrola the Twentieth

[gramophone-georg]

I am the customer who was the subject of Raphael’s most recent comments. Busy over the weekend and never intending to have this discussion in a public forum. But since Raphael has (to his credit) publicly sought input from the collectors, and people have responded, perhaps might be ok to add two cents on this very important topic. I am not against restoration-from the auction photos, I agree with Raphael that the machine from Maine required some level of restoration. Although I did express concerns, I unequivocally never resorted to hyperbole such as the machine needing to be “saved from ruination”--perhaps a liberal paraphrase of hoping to ‘save the machine from the re-finisher’. Review of photos of intact gilt XX’s on-line clearly shows that the original gold ornament has a subtle less opaque antiqued finish rather than bright opaque gilding. The VV XX illustration on the vintage brochure on this chain is done by an artist, who has (as is often the case) taken artistic license with the appearance including brighter gilding.

The more important overall issue is that the rarest machines require the most careful restoration. Clearly, a substantial component of the value of machines like this are their historical value and rarity. It is well accepted among major dealers and collectors in fine art and general antiques that there is a custodial responsibility to minimize alteration of historically important aesthetics of pieces, especially those pieces that are most rare and historic. That is one of the safest ways to preserve monetary value. This is of course a free country and no laws are being broken with any restoration. If someone wants to take a VV-VI and put on a high-gloss finish, alter the hue, and paint the edges, there are still plenty of VV-VI’s out there to tell the story. But losing even a few examples of the rarest machines to improper restoration can be a loss for the entire collecting community.

We have also seen that there are collectors who like the dirt and scratches, viewing these as an honest part of the history of the object. My personal preference is to restore them to a state that the Victor Company and the original owner had in mind, while not completely erasing some of the patina which shows that these are antiques. The best restoration is either no restoration or one that is more difficult to discern. An unrestored machine tells a story that can never be told again. The ungilded machine is an example of a later serial number XX, many of which were un-gilded. The lack of gilding is a significant part of its story. I admire the last owner who cleaned the dirt, but was secure enough to leave a few subtle signs of aging.

Also surprising that someone stated on a collectors’ forum that they don’t like selling to collectors, presumably because they are too picky. But the participants in this forum are the ones who truly care about the objects. The hobbyists who care about even the most minute history and details of these wonderful pieces should wear that as a badge of honor. Anyone who does not like to sell to collectors can easily find other non-collectible merchandise to sell. So whether you engage in collecting or commerce of the rarest and most historic pieces, please take utmost care to allow these pieces to continue to tell the story they have to tell. Grateful to all on this forum for their passion and knowledge-educational and inspirational!

I never mentioned you by name or intended this thread to be a personal dispute gone public. My intent was to seek diverse opinions. Thus, perhaps it is fair to quote your email of October 19, which I admittedly did condense but it specifically says "save it from your re-finisher" and "ruin the piece".

QUOTE

"Actually, one of the reasons I would like to purchase your machine is to save it from your re-finisher. I have spoken with other major collectors who are also very upset by the over-restoration of the gilded piece. Aside from a few nicks and missing molding strips at the bottom, the cabinet on this machine needs no major work. French polish would ruin the piece and also be inconsistent with how it appeared new."

UNQUOTE




Raphael

What I see here is that it's really coming down to personal preference.

First, vis a vis the machine in question- we must accept first that nobody alive today can say with exact certainty what this machine actually looked like brand new, because even if you found one in the original shipping crate time would have taken a toll.

I completely understand what Victor VII means by "over- restored" as I am a classic German car restorer. In the Mercedes line, if I am restoring a 190Dc, for example, I would never hang all the brightwork that came on a 300SEb on it, any more than I would lead in and smooth the correct factory spot welds on a 1950s VW commercial truck.

But I make the 190Dc/ 300SEb comparison for a reason. The 300SEb was meant to be the "flagship" of its era, therefore the paint finish should be dead smooth and reflect like a mirror with no distortion, and the brightwork should be flawless and bright. The only way you can really "over restore" it is if you refinish it in a base/clear (unless it's a rare metallic paint option)because you are too lazy to do a single stage that's deep enough to cut and buff which takes a lot of labor time. In fact, if you start doing any of the things I said that are over restoring to either car you've basically got no restoration at all, but a custom.

So too, in my dilettante's opinion, with the VTLA in question. This machine was definitely created as a centerpiece... intended to be as imposing as one of Raphael's restored ones are. French polish? Yea or nay? While it may or not be "factory" I'm sure that many of them had this done when they were brand new as it was a common practice on higher end pieces from the 18th century until about the Depression, so to me, French polishing would be, if not factory correct, akin to a correct period accessory on a classic automobile.

We have the same 'patina' arguments on the auto forums, LOL. The way I was trained, the paintwork and finish is absolutely necessary to be maintained in order to preserve what's underneath. So too with one of these machines.

So, like I said initially, this comes down to a totally subjective matter of opinion. Even the guilding being "too bright" or "not bright enough... how do we know?

I think it's a really good discussion, actually.

And sorry, but if the alleged quote from the email is indeed true, I'd find it insulting as well. Why not just say "I like the piece very much just as it is and would love to buy it now"?

[Raphael]

And sorry, but if the alleged quote from the email is indeed true, I'd find it insulting as well. Why not just say "I like the piece very much just as it is and would love to buy it now"?

"Alleged quote"? I did not post the complete original because it contains other personal and proprietary information, and out of courtesy did not want to disclose the name of the potential purchaser. I didn't expect to be challenged on veracity, though.



Raphael

[gramophone-georg]

And sorry, but if the alleged quote from the email is indeed true, I'd find it insulting as well. Why not just say "I like the piece very much just as it is and would love to buy it now"?

"Alleged quote"? I did not post the complete original because it contains other personal and proprietary information, and out of courtesy did not want to disclose the name of the potential purchaser. I didn't expect to be challenged on veracity, though.



Raphael

Just my dry legal training coming through, not meant personally.

[Hailey]

As stated by Victor VII:

"Also surprising that someone stated on a collectors’ forum that they don’t like selling to collectors, presumably because they are too picky. But the participants in this forum are the ones who truly care about the objects. The hobbyists who care about even the most minute history and details of these wonderful pieces should wear that as a badge of honor. Anyone who does not like to sell to collectors can easily find other non-collectible merchandise to sell."

What I said was that I find it "painful" to sell rare machines to other collectors. Your "presumption" was merely only partially correct. Additionally, the intent is usually always coupled with the expectation that if enough of the impurities of the machine are pointed out, the asking price will surely be adjusted to reflect such. I even find it less appealing when the prospective buyer is motivated to garner other collectors' opinions of something in an attempt to dignify their own personal arguement. Conversely, when offering a rare machine, I see it as extending an opportunity for the prospective purchaser to add an investment quality item to their collection. Any attempts to devalue the machine are simply an invitation for me to immediately abort the transaction. So, I suppose the badge of honor that you are referring to is engraved differently for each individual.

[gramophone-georg]

As stated by Victor VII:

"Also surprising that someone stated on a collectors’ forum that they don’t like selling to collectors, presumably because they are too picky. But the participants in this forum are the ones who truly care about the objects. The hobbyists who care about even the most minute history and details of these wonderful pieces should wear that as a badge of honor. Anyone who does not like to sell to collectors can easily find other non-collectible merchandise to sell."

What I said was that I find it "painful" to sell rare machines to other collectors. Your "presumption" was merely only partially correct. Additionally, the intent is usually always coupled with the expectation that if enough of the impurities of the machine are pointed out, the asking price will surely be adjusted to reflect such. I even find it less appealing when the prospective buyer is motivated to garner other collectors' opinions of something in an attempt to dignify their own personal arguement. Conversely, when offering a rare machine, I see it as extending an opportunity for the prospective purchaser to add an investment quality item to their collection. Any attempts to devalue the machine are simply an invitation for me to immediately abort the transaction. So, I suppose the badge of honor that you are referring to is engraved differently for each individual.

I've never understood the mentality. Either a piece appeals to me as a collector and I buy it, or it does not appeal to me and I do not. If I don't like the piece at full price, chances are pretty good I still won't like it at half price. Thus, there's no need for me to be a maroon and start bombarding a seller with what all is "wrong" with their piece and why it's not worth what they're asking.

As a seller, I try to give a truthful account, and I have a benchmark in mind where crossing that makes it no longer worth it to me to sell the piece.

It seems pretty simple to me and I'm just not into drama.

[gramophone78]

As stated by Victor VII:

"Also surprising that someone stated on a collectors’ forum that they don’t like selling to collectors, presumably because they are too picky. But the participants in this forum are the ones who truly care about the objects. The hobbyists who care about even the most minute history and details of these wonderful pieces should wear that as a badge of honor. Anyone who does not like to sell to collectors can easily find other non-collectible merchandise to sell."

What I said was that I find it "painful" to sell rare machines to other collectors. Your "presumption" was merely only partially correct. Additionally, the intent is usually always coupled with the expectation that if enough of the impurities of the machine are pointed out, the asking price will surely be adjusted to reflect such. I even find it less appealing when the prospective buyer is motivated to garner other collectors' opinions of something in an attempt to dignify their own personal arguement. Conversely, when offering a rare machine, I see it as extending an opportunity for the prospective purchaser to add an investment quality item to their collection. Any attempts to devalue the machine are simply an invitation for me to immediately abort the transaction. So, I suppose the badge of honor that you are referring to is engraved differently for each individual.

I've never understood the mentality. Either a piece appeals to me as a collector and I buy it, or it does not appeal to me and I do not. If I don't like the piece at full price, chances are pretty good I still won't like it at half price. Thus, there's no need for me to be a maroon and start bombarding a seller with what all is "wrong" with their piece and why it's not worth what they're asking.

As a seller, I try to give a truthful account, and I have a benchmark in mind where crossing that makes it no longer worth it to me to sell the piece.

It seems pretty simple to me and I'm just not into drama.

I'm just curious to know how you like mine.....although not for sale. I personally like the imperfections from time and use. It's not often a machine is found with a near perfect table felt. Unfortunately, the camera flash makes the case look lighter than in person.

[gramophone-georg]

As stated by Victor VII:

"Also surprising that someone stated on a collectors’ forum that they don’t like selling to collectors, presumably because they are too picky. But the participants in this forum are the ones who truly care about the objects. The hobbyists who care about even the most minute history and details of these wonderful pieces should wear that as a badge of honor. Anyone who does not like to sell to collectors can easily find other non-collectible merchandise to sell."

What I said was that I find it "painful" to sell rare machines to other collectors. Your "presumption" was merely only partially correct. Additionally, the intent is usually always coupled with the expectation that if enough of the impurities of the machine are pointed out, the asking price will surely be adjusted to reflect such. I even find it less appealing when the prospective buyer is motivated to garner other collectors' opinions of something in an attempt to dignify their own personal arguement. Conversely, when offering a rare machine, I see it as extending an opportunity for the prospective purchaser to add an investment quality item to their collection. Any attempts to devalue the machine are simply an invitation for me to immediately abort the transaction. So, I suppose the badge of honor that you are referring to is engraved differently for each individual.

I've never understood the mentality. Either a piece appeals to me as a collector and I buy it, or it does not appeal to me and I do not. If I don't like the piece at full price, chances are pretty good I still won't like it at half price. Thus, there's no need for me to be a maroon and start bombarding a seller with what all is "wrong" with their piece and why it's not worth what they're asking.

As a seller, I try to give a truthful account, and I have a benchmark in mind where crossing that makes it no longer worth it to me to sell the piece.

It seems pretty simple to me and I'm just not into drama.

I'm just curious to know how you like mine.....although not for sale. I personally like the imperfections from time and use. It's not often a machine is found with a near perfect table felt. Unfortunately, the camera flash makes the case look lighter than in person.

Victrola VV-XX (6).JPG

Victrola VV-XX (8).JPG

100_8964.JPG

Two of your attachments disappeared, so hard to say.

[gramophone78]

That was strange...I reposted my pics above in my original post.. .

[Victor VII]

My last post intentionally (in part as courtesy to Raphael) did not fully detail my concerns about restoration of specific machines -I instead tried to segue my reply to the more important overriding issue of responsible stewardship and careful restoration of the most rare/historical machines. However, in shifting from paraphrasing my remarks to specifically quoting one of my emails, Raphael publicized my concerns much more specifically than I would have liked. Perhaps I was harsh, but remarks are often best understood in their much broader context; further discussion of which at this time would be counter-productive.

Since my concern over French polishing is now public, this practice has potential not only to add a glossy shine that was not factory-appropriate, but it can also alter the hue/color of the piece. As excellent stewards of the non-gilded XX, the previous owners cleaned the finish close to its original opulence while allowing the wood to retain a rich mellowed hue consistent with its age. Rather than requiring a French polish, that piece needs a new owner who will continue to respect and preserve its historic fabric.

As to the ‘gilding’, I do not believe that metal leaf gold was actually used by Victor. Rather, based on the appearance of the beautiful piece just posted as well as other images on line, seems they used a more subtle gold 'glazing' which had a bit of antique patina even when new. Perhaps someone who owns one can look closely and weigh in further on this.

And I apologize for misinterpreting the forum member who finds it painful to sell to collectors. I believe many of us have shared his experiences. Thankful that this thread has generated lots of discussion. For the sake of future collectors, the hope is that current custodians of the rarest machines will give careful consideration to maintaining original appearance and/or patina of age, rather than acting on some more arbitrary personal preference.

[gramophone-georg]

That was strange...I reposted my pics above in my original post.. .

As an original, I think it's a great example and the turntable felt being original says a lot. I'd be happy to own it.