The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Uncle Vanya wrote:

krkey1 wrote:The way to tell those "operas" is to look for a curved notch in the bottom right front of the bedplate. Real operas do not have that feature

Neither do the better of Cecil's fakes.

Great then how do we tell them apart. Did he make mahogany or oak machines

I still like to have a book that I can refer back to, but I may be the exception. I can add place marks and sit in my chair and read without the eyestrain caused by a monitor. I sit in front of a computer for most of the day, so sitting down with a book is a treat. I prefer text, graphics and photos that are not pixelated. A searchable document is sometimes more efficient, but I just don't like it as well. The Society's web site would be a great, central place to store this information too and it would be nice if this information was compiled and updated in a central location and from a known and respected source.

Exactly, there is no reason not to have a book. Why not, lets try to figure all this out.

I think we all agree on the following.

We do not oppose reproduction parts, restored machines, composite machines etc as long as such things are properly described and noted. We do oppose such things not being noted much less being lied about.

I think that machine Raphael posted is beautiful. I love the pedestal it rests on. But that machine cannot be described as a product of the early twentieth century and Raphael is not trying to. It was made by Don Gfell 25 years ago and needs to be described that way.

I do think we already have some great books on the subject of machines such as Frew's guide to Edison Machines. What it seems is that we need a book/pdf very specifically aimed at fake machines and reproduction parts and how to tell. Does that sound fair?

Django wrote:I still like to have a book that I can refer back to, but I may be the exception. I can add place marks and sit in my chair and read without the eyestrain caused by a monitor. I sit in front of a computer for most of the day, so sitting down with a book is a treat. I prefer text, graphics and photos that are not pixelated. A searchable document is sometimes more efficient, but I just don't like it as well. The Society's web site would be a great, central place to store this information too and it would be nice if this information was compiled and updated in a central location and from a known and respected source.

I too prefer books over online sources.

George P.

So what are possible topics of discussion?

By the time I hit 90- 120 years old I fully expect to be sporting some reproduction parts myself. Do you think I'm going to object to a bypass or a hip or knee replacement or a pacemaker because "it's only original once"??? Of course not

Even with replacement parts, much to the detriment of the world... I will still be me.

I meant to post this in response to the "grandpa's axe" comment.

I think the concern with "fake" or "reproduction" parts derives from an erroneous impression from some collectors that gramophones are unique works of art and therefore deserve to be discriminated when non-original parts are added or they are tempered with.

Evidently all machines we collect (except for unique prototypes) are industrial products made serially, and as collectors we need to deal with that fact. Like cars, sewing machines, clocks and other electromechanical devices, it is widely accepted to replace decaying parts either with similar old parts or with newly-made ones, to repaint worn exteriors, and even to substitute parts that do not exist and cannot be easily made with different parts. Personally I don't see any problem in utilizing new parts if they of good quality and look good, like a newly-made orthophonic soundbox that I bought from Walt Sommers some years ago, and to my nickel is more valuable than an original one, because it sounds better and looks better than the old original.

On the topic of fraud and misleading, the only person that can attest that a particular machine is being sold in the same condition as when produced is that shrinking group of people who bought the machine in a store themselves. Even the guy who is selling gramma's victrola cannot attest if and when grampa replaced parts of it eighty years ago. It boils down then to inspection of the article and specific knowledge of the buyer to figure out if the machine is worth the price.

gramophone-georg wrote:By the time I hit 90- 120 years old I fully expect to be sporting some reproduction parts myself. Do you think I'm going to object to a bypass or a hip or knee replacement or a pacemaker because "it's only original once"??? Of course not

Even with replacement parts, much to the detriment of the world... I will still be me.

I meant to post this in response to the "grandpa's axe" comment.

Yeah but no one considers you valuable much less collectable

CarlosV wrote:I think the concern with "fake" or "reproduction" parts derives from an erroneous impression from some collectors that gramophones are unique works of art and therefore deserve to be discriminated when non-original parts are added or they are tempered with.

Evidently all machines we collect (except for unique prototypes) are industrial products made serially, and as collectors we need to deal with that fact. Like cars, sewing machines, clocks and other electromechanical devices, it is widely accepted to replace decaying parts either with similar old parts or with newly-made ones, to repaint worn exteriors, and even to substitute parts that do not exist and cannot be easily made with different parts. Personally I don't see any problem in utilizing new parts if they of good quality and look good, like a newly-made orthophonic soundbox that I bought from Walt Sommers some years ago, and to my nickel is more valuable than an original one, because it sounds better and looks better than the old original.

On the topic of fraud and misleading, the only person that can attest that a particular machine is being sold in the same condition as when produced is that shrinking group of people who bought the machine in a store themselves. Even the guy who is selling gramma's victrola cannot attest if and when grampa replaced parts of it eighty years ago. It boils down then to inspection of the article and specific knowledge of the buyer to figure out if the machine is worth the price.

How is this a wrong belief. A lot of people who collect items place a greater premium on original items over reproduction items. It is just how people do things.

Those of us who are purest so to speak are part of this hobby too and we want to know how to discriminate original from reproduction. Many of us have said we don't mind reproduction, but we want to know about it. I think that is fair.