The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

CarlosV wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:11 am
Hi Marie

Needles: these steel needles are made to played only once. The ones designed to play for 500-100 hours are made of jewel like sapphire or diamond, and are not designed for acoustic gramophones like yours, but for lighter weight arms of radiograms or modern turntable. If you put one of these jewel needles on your 130, it will eat away the record right away. And rusty needles are a no-no: that means that their tips are pitted and they will act as chisels creating large friction and damaging the records. For suppliers of newly made steel needles, I suggest you try the dealer soundgen in UK eBay, he sells packs of needles and from what I read in this forum, he has good feedback concerning the quality of the needles he sells.

Slowing down: I am not certain that the springs need replacement. If you can crank 20+ turns without noticing any sudden release of the winding force while doing it, this means that the springs are not broken. They may produce a thump, which means that the grease is gluing adjacent parts of the spring, and the crank force makes them unglue. I suggest that you remove with a toothbrush the lumps of grease and crud that may be in the motor gears, and lubricate its moving parts by applying sewing oil to the parts that rotate, including the main spindle that holds the record, the rotating axes of each gear and the felt pad of the governor that controls the speed, and apply grease to the teeth of the gears. This may reduce any abnormal friction that may be present due to the decades of dust accumulation. After doing that, wind and let the motor run down for two or three times, and try to play a record again - with a new needle.

Thank you, I went on ebay and found a few packs of needles I hope will be suitable. Now it's just waiting untill delivery to be confortable to play records without risking to screw them. Meanwhile I think there are 2-3 still okay needles to work with.

I need to check the motor indeed, but at the moment I'm unable to open it due to the fact I don't have adequate tools to do so and I do not wish to damage it doing it without the correct tool. Also, I don't want to get grease all over my small appartment . So this will have to wait until holidays where I can take the mecanism somwhere more adequate to working on it. I guess it can't do any harm if I play one or two records "as is" in the mean time

As long as it works, and if you don't hear any strong thumps inside while playing, it's ok. You can temporarily stop the thumps by pouring some oil inside the spring barrel, so it mixes with the old hard grease and dilutes it somehow. But for this temporary repair you need to be able to extract the barrel arbour and the barrel. It's a bit messy but not difficult. Only five screws. You don't need to disassemble the entire motor not open the barrel.
First take out the needles and everything. Better if you also remove the soundbox to avoid damage.
Take out the winding crank, unscrewing it in reverse. It may be hard as rock, be patient. Give small kicks with a soft hammer or something until it eventually gives way.
Then lift the turntable off the spindle. Then you'll find four big screws attaching the motor board to the case, take them out.
Then carefully get the motor board out of the case lifting it by the small knob and with the other hand. Be careful, as it is heavy. Extract it and put it on a table upside down. I use two thick wooden squares to support the board so the spindle doesn't touch the table and it can rest stable and horizontal.
You'll find a small thick screw on the stanchion opposite the winding mechanism, at one end of the barrel. You take this screw out, and then you force the arbour out of the motor and the barrel becomes free. It can be a bit difficult if the arbour (or axis) has got frozen. You must hammer it out using a wooden stick or something to avoid marring it. The arbour is a simple thick short axis, completely plain except the little hole where the screw enters. Once the barrel is free, you take it out from the motor, and extract the bull gear, and put some motor oil inside the hole, rotating the barrel on a table to distribute the oil inside. After that treatment, you reinsert the bull gear, and here is the second difficulty: you must enter the bull gear so that its stem catches the inner spring end, bent in Z shape, into the corresponding indentation where you logically see it must enter.
After that you put the barrel in place carefully, oil and insert the arbour while lifting the barrel with one hand so the arbour can enter as long as it is, and the small screw hole matches the hole on the stanchion, then screw again and it's done. You wind up the motor and let it run down several times to ease the oil between the coils. If it gets softer, and there is no thumping, you've done it. Just keep it being used frequently.
The oil will escape and drip out of the barrel, so better if you make a tray with absorbent paper or something like aluminium foil (doubled) and place it over the horn, under the motor, but such that the gears don't touch it... Just to collect the oil drops and avoid it making a mess inside.

Hi,
Apologies for my late reply as I was without internet for a while.

The plan was indeed to add oil as I am afraid I do not have the strenght to rewind the springs once unwound and cleaned, but as I don't have the tools, I went to my dad to get help (and his tools) - however the only answer I got was "if it still works, don't touch it".... which is maybe not a bad idea at present time. As a last ressort, I injected a bit of WD-40 where I could, in the hope it will help, and will leave it as it for now.

I will run a few tests when I receive new needle, to see if I still hear the sound when winding up the crank. Should this be the case then I will unbox the mechanism again, and follow your kind advice. Thank you so much

Moreover, I noticed I missed the top part of a piece of the mechanism (cf. photo attached).
I was wondering what the use of that part was, and if it's problematic it's missing as the mechanism can play a record?

Are you missing then what looks like the speed indicator? It's not clear

Inigo wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:22 pm Are you missing then what looks like the speed indicator? It's not clear

The 130 does not have the speed indicator, so it makes sense that it is missing. This motor has a version with the speed indicator bolted on, and another without it. Probably the Gramophone Co did not care to print two different drawings, one per type.

CarlosV wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 4:41 am

Inigo wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 6:22 pm Are you missing then what looks like the speed indicator? It's not clear

The 130 does not have the speed indicator, so it makes sense that it is missing. This motor has a version with the speed indicator bolted on, and another without it. Probably the Gramophone Co did not care to print two different drawings, one per type.

Thank you, then it makes perfect sense indeed!
However, regarding speed, on the HMV130 there is a metal piece marked slow/fast on the wooden side (next to where the record goes). It is connected to the mechanism, but I didn't notice anything when changing the speed while / before playing a record.

It may be misadjusted, that's why you don't notice speed change. Or the springs are weak (or gummed in old sticky grease and graphite cake) and when you move the control to play faster, indeed the needle drag on the record does not allow the weak motor to gain speed. There are two motives to slow down the motor. One is the felt or leather button pad friction with the governor disc, and this should be always the driver. And the other is the needle drag on the record. The motor must have enough power to overcome the second, so it's the friction pad in the governor which drives the thing. But if the spring is weak, or its power is, then the needle drag drives the work, which should not be.
Your entire motor and springs need to be cleaned and regreased/oiled with fresh new products. This will allow it developing all its power.
It could be in the end that the springs are 'tired' and need to be replaced...
It could also be that the speed changing mechanism does not work or is misadjusted. It's a simple bent rod that moves the friction pad towards the governor disk or away from it. You can examine it with the motor running to see what is happening when you move the friction pad.

The speed changing mechanism does seem to work properly. Springs are not cleaned so this must be the cause.
I'm still waiting for the new needles to not scratch my records, then I will retest and see if it fails halfway like the last time (seems to be more the case on small '78 records then on the bigger ones). If really there is no change I will try to clean the springs as they are surely full of clogged/dry oil, but I'm trying to avoid that at all cost because I'm not sure I can get them back in. I checked the neigborhood and didn't find anyone who can do this kind of work so... I'm just hoping for the best here.

Nobody there near you? You can send the barrels as they are to someone to do the job for you, clean, grease and reinstall the springs, or replace them if too tired. Pity it's that these springs are getting more expensive each month... Not too much time ago they costed €45 each, but now, they cost much more, and as they are heavy, shipping costs are not cheap neither. You need to find someone in EU, to save the customs. Until the Brexit, UK was a very interesting option, but now the shipping costs and customs taxes and the VAT etc have rocketed the cost. You better should try to do it yourself, and reuse the same springs if possible. You just need strong hands and thick protective gloves.

Inigo wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:04 pm Nobody there near you? You can send the barrels as they are to someone to do the job for you, clean, grease and reinstall the springs, or replace them if too tired. Pity it's that these springs are getting more expensive each month... Not too much time ago they costed €45 each, but now, they cost much more, and as they are heavy, shipping costs are not cheap neither. You need to find someone in EU, to save the customs. Until the Brexit, UK was a very interesting option, but now the shipping costs and customs taxes and the VAT etc have rocketed the cost. You better should try to do it yourself, and reuse the same springs if possible. You just need strong hands and thick protective gloves.

Right now there is a couple of full HMV32 motors for sale in the UK eBay. It will be much cheaper to get a full replacement motor than buying new springs.