Victor VTLA (XX) Victrola the Twentieth

[gramophone-georg]

My last post intentionally (in part as courtesy to Raphael) did not fully detail my concerns about restoration of specific machines -I instead tried to segue my reply to the more important overriding issue of responsible stewardship and careful restoration of the most rare/historical machines. However, in shifting from paraphrasing my remarks to specifically quoting one of my emails, Raphael publicized my concerns much more specifically than I would have liked. Perhaps I was harsh, but remarks are often best understood in their much broader context; further discussion of which at this time would be counter-productive.

Since my concern over French polishing is now public, this practice has potential not only to add a glossy shine that was not factory-appropriate, but it can also alter the hue/color of the piece. As excellent stewards of the non-gilded XX, the previous owners cleaned the finish close to its original opulence while allowing the wood to retain a rich mellowed hue consistent with its age. Rather than requiring a French polish, that piece needs a new owner who will continue to respect and preserve its historic fabric.

As to the ‘gilding’, I do not believe that metal leaf gold was actually used by Victor. Rather, based on the appearance of the beautiful piece just posted as well as other images on line, seems they used a more subtle gold 'glazing' which had a bit of antique patina even when new. Perhaps someone who owns one can look closely and weigh in further on this.

And I apologize for misinterpreting the forum member who finds it painful to sell to collectors. I believe many of us have shared his experiences. Thankful that this thread has generated lots of discussion. For the sake of future collectors, the hope is that current custodians of the rarest machines will give careful consideration to maintaining original appearance and/or patina of age, rather than acting on some more arbitrary personal preference.

But the "aged appearance" you reference above isn't "factory appropriate" either. It, too, can be styled an "arbitrary personal preference".

[gramophone78]

In my humble opinion and based on my own observations...I do not believe gold leaf was applied to produce the gilding. It appears to be a type of gold glazing and at best the sheen of 10K gold. However, I have been known to be wrong.. .

I hope these close ups help.

[Victor VII]

Careful personal judgement/preference obviously required to determine what degree of aging to retain vs carefully re-creating post-manufacture appearance. Arbitrary personal preference substantially disregards both of these criteria either out of insensitivity or in favor of whatever strikes one's fancy.

Not dictated by Federal or State law. Simply a matter of taking one's custodial responsibility seriously for the sake of the next generation of collectors.

[gramophone-georg]

In my humble opinion and based on my own observations...I do not believe gold leaf was applied to produce the gilding. It appears to be a type of gold glazing and at best the sheen of 10K gold at best.

I hope these close ups help.

Victrola XX Gilding (1).JPG

Victrola XX Gilding (2).JPG

Victrola XX Gilding (3).JPG

You may be entirely correct. I'm way more of an enthusiast than an expert here.

What I can tell you is that both your machine and Rafael's restored one are worthy pieces in my opinion.

I can also tell you that whether these machines were originally gilded as Rafael does it or gilded the way you surmise it was done through your observations really isn't what got to me here.

I'm just not understanding the seeming need to go out of one's way to insult a man's craft and telling him that "many collectors" are dismayed at what he is doing when one can just ask to buy a piece as is.

That's it.

maybe I should STHU and just go back to being a grease monkey.

[gramophone-georg]

Careful personal judgement/preference obviously required to determine what degree of aging to retain vs carefully re-creating post-manufacture appearance. Arbitrary personal preference substantially disregards both of these criteria either out of insensitivity or in favor of whatever strikes one's fancy.

Not dictated by Federal or State law. Simply a matter of taking one's custodial responsibility seriously for the sake of the next generation of collectors.

And what happens when your understanding of 'custodial responsibility' doesn't mesh with mine?

[Raphael]

Careful personal judgement/preference obviously required to determine what degree of aging to retain vs carefully re-creating post-manufacture appearance. Arbitrary personal preference substantially disregards both of these criteria either out of insensitivity or in favor of whatever strikes one's fancy.

Not dictated by Federal or State law. Simply a matter of taking one's custodial responsibility seriously for the sake of the next generation of collectors.

And what happens when your understanding of 'custodial responsibility' doesn't mesh with mine?

Well said, George.

This thread certainly has sparked some enthusiastic and intelligent comments. I may have to reconsider my other idea of painting the XX taxicab yellow.

Seriously, though, there is more than a little background to Victor VII's posts. I will not go into them here. BUT, in my opinion, he has fallen victim to those "expert collectors" he consulted. It's not the first time it's happened to me, there is a thread on the TMF a few years back about a customer who accused me of selling him a repro Victor VI, because an "expert collector" came to his house and pronounced it thus. After absolutely and convincingly proving him wrong, he apologized, and went on to buy several more high-end pieces from me.

I am currently in the process of evaluating and disposing of a major (and I mean MAJOR) collection, the owner of which never could make up his mind about a purchase unless it was blessed by an "expert". You wouldn't believe some of the wacky things I am coming across. Sometimes "expert collectors" have an ulterior motive, and this is not the first time I have liquidated a major collection and finding the same situation.

Raphael

[Curt A]

RE: Age appropriate "look"... A few years ago, an expert craftsman in the field of early handmade and painted New England period furniture, decided to try his hand at convincing "experts" of the authenticity of his newly created furniture copied from originals... He built a very handsome piece and decided to "weather" it in order to make a point. He went to the extreme using calculated methods of making his piece look original.

After completion, he sunk it in a swamp for a month, then pulled it out and painted it with milk paint. He then stripped the paint and repainted different colors several times. Finally, he left it in a chicken coop for several weeks and then cleaned it up... He then took his piece to a museum (I think the Smithsonian) and had it examined by experts. They ended up buying it from him for $35,000 as an original... After the exchange, he then told them he made it from scratch and they didn't believe him...

[Curt A]

RE: Gilding - per Wayne's machine. I believe that the gilt finish on Wayne's machine and other originals, is not done by gold leaf, but rather with metallic powders mixed with shellac. Metallic powders have the ability to tarnish with age as opposed to gold leaf, which stays bright.
http://www.goldleafsupplies.co.uk/acata ... owder.html

[Hailey]

Gramophone78 wrote:

"I'm just curious to know how you like mine.....although not for sale. I personally like the imperfections from time and use. It's not often a machine is found with a near perfect table felt. Unfortunately, the camera flash makes the case look lighter than in person."

Wayne...I bet it would be for sale if we worked out a deal for a certain item that sits in my house!!

And, regarding the continued input on this thread by Victor VII...it is apparent that this gentleman is certainly another member of the brotherhood of collectors who has his own personal standards just like the rest of us. I have enjoyed his comments, as well as the other comments regarding this particular machine, and what particulars that we all have. The bottom line still remains...for each and every machine out there, there is an enthusiast who desires to acquire and exhibit the piece representing his/her own standards. If we were all clones of one another, this would be no fun whatsoever!!

[gramophone78]

Wayne...I bet it would be for sale if we worked out a deal for a certain item that sits in my house!!

What can I say.... .