The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

krkey1 wrote:

gramophone-georg wrote:By the time I hit 90- 120 years old I fully expect to be sporting some reproduction parts myself. Do you think I'm going to object to a bypass or a hip or knee replacement or a pacemaker because "it's only original once"??? Of course not

Even with replacement parts, much to the detriment of the world... I will still be me.

I meant to post this in response to the "grandpa's axe" comment.

Yeah but no one considers you valuable much less collectable

Ouch, truth hurts, right?

My two cents again... If I buy one of Cecil's fake Operas and I don't know the difference, then that's on me... Before buying an Opera, it might be a good idea to consult with people who are honest and know the differences. If I can't tell the difference between a Don Gfell or Eduardo horn and I pay big bucks for it, then that's on me. If I buy a Crap-O-Phone for $1,000 on eBay and don't know the difference, then that's on me too. In all honesty, if I don't care enough to research what I buy, I might just be happy with any of those purchases that aren't quite right... Obviously, it would make absolute sense to find out all you can learn from books and other experts before sending a PayPal payment for a Mills Violano that is listed on eBay as a one owner in pristine original condition...

Before jumping into anything with unknown variables, education is the only thing that will keep you from potentially making a mistake. If a book is written to include all known fakes, then someone will fake something not in the book - it's called greed and human nature. You can't rescue people who don't care enough to educate themselves before buying something fake or paying too much... all you can do is your part in being honest and not misrepresenting the stuff you sell to someone else.

Curt A wrote:My two cents again... If I buy one of Cecil's fake Operas and I don't know the difference, then that's on me... Before buying an Opera, it might be a good idea to consult with people who are honest and know the differences. If I can't tell the difference between a Don Gfell or Eduardo horn and I pay big bucks for it, then that's on me. If I buy a Crap-O-Phone for $1,000 on eBay and don't know the difference, then that's on me too. In all honesty, if I don't care enough to research what I buy, I might just be happy with any of those purchases that aren't quite right... Obviously, it would make absolute sense to find out all you can learn from books and other experts before sending a PayPal payment for a Mills Violano that is listed on eBay as a one owner in pristine original condition...

Before jumping into anything with unknown variables, education is the only thing that will keep you from potentially making a mistake. If a book is written to include all known fakes, then someone will fake something not in the book - it's called greed and human nature. You can't rescue people who don't care enough to educate themselves before buying something fake or paying too much... all you can do is your part in being honest and not misrepresenting the stuff you sell to someone else.

Perfectly put.

I don't look at my machines as investments, and I'm not their pimp. I buy them because I like what I see and I enjoy it. To me, "will I enjoy using it and listening to it" is my benchmark.If I can get what I have in a machine back at sale time... great! If I can make a few bucks, even better. If I have to give it away I'm OK with keeping it too.

I've owned a couple machines over the years that wound up being Frankenphone fakes but they were well done enough to fool me and I got a lot of enjoyment out of them. When I sold them I was able to break even by listing them on eBay for exactly what they were. This was when the market on outside horn machines was going bat poop crazy, and your choice was a Crapophone for $199.99 plus shipping or the real deal for a couple/ few grand. I was priced between $650-800 on my Frankies, and gave copious photos, description, and videos of them playing a record all the way through with the listings. Both went to people who had kids at home who were interested in the hobby, and these buyers felt these machines were perfect for their up and coming collectors to play with, experiment on, and appreciate while being neither flimsy POSs nor breaking the bank.

Curt A wrote:My two cents again... If I buy one of Cecil's fake Operas and I don't know the difference, then that's on me... Before buying an Opera, it might be a good idea to consult with people who are honest and know the differences. If I can't tell the difference between a Don Gfell or Eduardo horn and I pay big bucks for it, then that's on me. If I buy a Crap-O-Phone for $1,000 on eBay and don't know the difference, then that's on me too. In all honesty, if I don't care enough to research what I buy, I might just be happy with any of those purchases that aren't quite right... Obviously, it would make absolute sense to find out all you can learn from books and other experts before sending a PayPal payment for a Mills Violano that is listed on eBay as a one owner in pristine original condition...

Before jumping into anything with unknown variables, education is the only thing that will keep you from potentially making a mistake. If a book is written to include all known fakes, then someone will fake something not in the book - it's called greed and human nature. You can't rescue people who don't care enough to educate themselves before buying something fake or paying too much... all you can do is your part in being honest and not misrepresenting the stuff you sell to someone else.

I do of course acknowledge people have a personal responsibility but I think we as collectors have a responsibility to each other. I am retired from the army. In the army we had an expression called " setting someone up for failure". That meant not giving a person the knowledge or training that they needed to succeed. We as a hobby are not giving members now and in the future what they need to succeed if we are not giving them the knowledge they need to know repro from original, original from fake. If they do not choose to access that knowledge that is on them, but those of us who have that knowledge need to make it available.

Future generations of collectors will want to know how to tell an Eduardo or a Gfell from an original wood horn. If we can have that knowledge readily available now it benefits the future collector.

Let's consider these "Cecil Opera's". They are meant to deceive, there is no way to nicely say that. Such machines honestly needed to be clearly marked . The hobby should condemn such a collector as Cecil for putting these machines out there. And yes it needs to be condemned. Let us consider what Cecil had to have done.

He had to gather up cases from Triumph Model D, E and F. If a D or E he had to make fake pillars.

He had to hide the holes for the horn mount.

What did he do with the leftover parts. Who knows. But he has just destroyed some perfectly good triumphs.

Now he has to get some Amberola 1b or III which are both valuable machines. He took their bedplates and altered them. He had to potentially hide holes on a plate. He had to get a fake horn mount made. He had to get a fake id plate made. He had to grind parts of the plate and remove amberola parts. He would have had to repaint these bedplates to hide his new holes and his hidden holes. So he ruined a perfectly good amberola to make a fake machine.

The horn now. Where did he get a wood horn from?? Why from the Triumphs. But they have to be made to fit an opera so now these horns have got to be sawed down. That is destroying yet another collectible item.

So let's now discuss tell tale signs of a "Cecil Opera". None of these are certain but if you see these things be warned!

1.) it is almost certainly an oak machine. If you have a mahogany case for an opera after all it probably still has the machine.

2.) It will have hidden drill holes in the back

3.) The pillars are all reproductions

4.) the bed plate has this feature-http://forum.talkingmachine.info/downlo ... &mode=view ( note I have been told Cecil figured out how to hide this)

5.) the ID plate will not look correct

6.) the part of the machine stamped with the serial number will be very flat because the original serial number was ground off

6.) the horn mount will not look like known authentic ones

7.) The horn will have the spring attachment holes hidden

8.) the bell of the horn will be reproduction

9.) the machine will have been repainted and possibly not match original colors.

Some of these traits are more damning than others but they are all things to watch for.

This is what a book for fakes would contain. See how this helps. Why not make such a product.

krkey1 wrote:

Curt A wrote: This is what a book for fakes would contain. See how this helps. Why not make such a product.

It would not be difficult to identify "cottage industry" reproductions, like the ones you mention, the horns, the fake opera, and I can think of edison reproducers, orthophonic reproducers, Berliner dog models, and horn gramophones (frankenphones) made in England in the 80s. All of these were or are being made in numbers higher than one, so they eventually call the attention of collectors and become topics of conversation. However, whenever single pieces of reproductions are made, especially when made for brands that not the main ones and therefore have scarce documentation, they usually slip under the radar, and become virtually unidentifiable.

CarlosV wrote:

krkey1 wrote:

Curt A wrote: This is what a book for fakes would contain. See how this helps. Why not make such a product.

It would not be difficult to identify "cottage industry" reproductions, like the ones you mention, the horns, the fake opera, and I can think of edison reproducers, orthophonic reproducers, Berliner dog models, and horn gramophones (frankenphones) made in England in the 80s. All of these were or are being made in numbers higher than one, so they eventually call the attention of collectors and become topics of conversation. However, whenever single pieces of reproductions are made, especially when made for brands that not the main ones and therefore have scarce documentation, they usually slip under the radar, and become virtually unidentifiable.

Yes so let's have a resource to properly identify those that we can ID. Even if we cannot get all the repro and fake parts doesn't mean we shouldn't get what can be got.

I reread the description given of the nature of these fake operas

"Well, there were at least twenty good fake Operas built from Amberola III and Amberola 1B mechanisms about thirty years ago. A parts supplier in California made up the reproducer and horn support assemblies, reproduction cabinets were built, and fake name plates were made. I found out later that this group of machines were the destination of a large group of Ives drawer handles (the same units used by Edison on the Opera and Idelia cabinets) which I salvaged from a 1908 vintage mansion in East Cleveland, OH, in 1982. The plates are not quite right, having been cast rather than etched, and the serial number bosses are all ground nearly flat so that "Opera" serial numbers could be assigned in place of the obvious Amberola numbers."

People can forget about my complaint of destroying original triumphs, glad for that one. They made reproduction cabinets and if they put handles on them then clearly we are talking about mahogany machines. Still the rest of my indicators would work.

My indicators would be a good way to tell if someone tried to make an oak edison opera out of a triumph cabinet and an amberola bedplate though

Obviously, the only motivating factor for making fake Operas was greed, since they were commanding high prices at the time... Lets call that by its actual name - "FRAUD". That is totally different from restoring an Opera, getting an Eduardo horn and completing it with repro parts...

The concern that I have currently is where are Eduardo's Victor VI cases going? There can't be that many Victor VI original machines that are missing their cases... However, there are a number of VTLA machines of lesser value that have the correct parts to put together a new Victor VI. Is this a known reality? If so, is that why Victor VI prices are declining? Actually, I am not concerned for myself, since after seeing one of those mahogany empty cases at a show, I decided I didn't need a Victor VI that could be a clone...

Again, this same thing happens in every area of collecting where people see an opportunity to scam others because of an increased interest or price increase. Car collectors try to modify lesser model cars into the more desirable types by adding the necessary striping, engine swaps, optional equipment, etc. Counterfeiters make fake historic documents and currency, art forgers fake famous paintings and more than one fake piece of furniture has fooled even the experts at the Smithsonian... A few years ago I stopped at a furniture restoration shop that was well known for restoring period original furniture. The owner took me in the back to look at a beautiful 18th century highboy that a client brought in. He had bought it from a "reliable" antiques dealer for over $20,000 and had it shipped from Europe. During shipment the highboy was damaged by a forklift and the client wanted it repaired... the shop owner showed me the damage and asked me if I thought chipboard was used in early furniture. His point was that the outside of the cabinet looked to be authentic and over 200 years old, but the interior said that it was a newly made fake...

Curt A wrote:Obviously, the only motivating factor for making fake Operas was greed, since they were commanding high prices at the time... Lets call that by its actual name - "FRAUD". That is totally different from restoring an Opera, getting an Eduardo horn and completing it with repro parts...

The concern that I have currently is where are Eduardo's Victor VI cases going? There can't be that many Victor VI original machines that are missing their cases... However, there are a number of VTLA machines of lesser value that have the correct parts to put together a new Victor VI. Is this a known reality? If so, is that why Victor VI prices are declining? Actually, I am not concerned for myself, since after seeing one of those mahogany empty cases at a show, I decided I didn't need a Victor VI that could be a clone...

Again, this same thing happens in every area of collecting where people see an opportunity to scam others because of an increased interest or price increase. Car collectors try to modify lesser model cars into the more desirable types by adding the necessary striping, engine swaps, optional equipment, etc. Counterfeiters make fake historic documents and currency, art forgers fake famous paintings and more than one fake piece of furniture has fooled even the experts at the Smithsonian... A few years ago I stopped at a furniture restoration shop that was well known for restoring period original furniture. The owner took me in the back to look at a beautiful 18th century highboy that a client brought in. He had bought it from a "reliable" antiques dealer for over $20,000 and had it shipped from Europe. During shipment the highboy was damaged by a forklift and the client wanted it repaired... the shop owner showed me the damage and asked me if I thought chipboard was used in early furniture. His point was that the outside of the cabinet looked to be authentic and over 200 years old, but the interior said that it was a newly made fake...

Yep that is my concern with these Eduardo cabinets, Gfell horns etc. Eventually they will be presented as the real deal and they will be used to scam people. I hope that restorer told the person who bought the Highboy. That was fraud what happened to him.

Our hobby is coming down the path of the dangerous fake. The machines that can deceive the knowledgeable. We need to stop this in its tracks.

The problem is that there is plenty of good reliable stuff on the low or beginner end but as tastes develope towards more desirable phonographs, the product isn't there. The really nice stuff is getting priced too high for the average Joe. That's the sad truth.
It's like house prices. How will our kids and grandkids afford a house? They will turn their backs on the McMansions.