The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:56 pm
I just think if steel needles are as evil as you imagine them to be, then steel needles would have become obsolete 100 yrs ago.
I've no doubt thorn and bamboo needles do less long term damage to records than steel, but Ive got many records I've been playing with steel for 40 yrs and most show no signs of significant wear.
Personally I'd rather enjoy my records without sacrificing sound quality and volume.
I like steel needles and enjoy the sound of steel needles, but unlike yourself I'm not trying to sell steel needles. I'm merely saying imo steel needles don't seem to be the evil groove plowing rust producing record ruiners some people make them out to be.

CarlosV wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:48 am

gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:56 pm
I just think if steel needles are as evil as you imagine them to be, then steel needles would have become obsolete 100 yrs ago.
I've no doubt thorn and bamboo needles do less long term damage to records than steel, but Ive got many records I've been playing with steel for 40 yrs and most show no signs of significant wear.
Personally I'd rather enjoy my records without sacrificing sound quality and volume.
I like steel needles and enjoy the sound of steel needles, but unlike yourself I'm not trying to sell steel needles. I'm merely saying imo steel needles don't seem to be the evil groove plowing rust producing record ruiners some people make them out to be.

The above statements are correct, and the obvious evidence is that about 99% of the records that exist today were played with steel needles (excluding vertical cuts), and fortunately there are hundreds of thousands of near-mint records still around, each and every one having being played with steel needles. There is also a downside of thorns and bamboos: they will overheat and damage some records, like Grey Gulls and many other dime-labels sold in the 20s and 30s, and definitely are not compatible with post mid forties modern records, mainly US-made softer mixes with no abrasives (European production kept abrasives in the mix until the mid fifties). Another limitation is that thorns and bamboos will not resist to high modulations: I have a number of records that cause the thorn to crack at exactly the same place, when they have to ride a high modulation, that is easily overcome with a steel needle. Nevertheless, with these caveats, I utilize thorns whenever I can, as I like their sound with the natural low pass filter that they impart, making the hiss inaudible.

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:38 am

CarlosV wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:48 am

gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:56 pm
I just think if steel needles are as evil as you imagine them to be, then steel needles would have become obsolete 100 yrs ago.
I've no doubt thorn and bamboo needles do less long term damage to records than steel, but Ive got many records I've been playing with steel for 40 yrs and most show no signs of significant wear.
Personally I'd rather enjoy my records without sacrificing sound quality and volume.
I like steel needles and enjoy the sound of steel needles, but unlike yourself I'm not trying to sell steel needles. I'm merely saying imo steel needles don't seem to be the evil groove plowing rust producing record ruiners some people make them out to be.

The above statements are correct, and the obvious evidence is that about 99% of the records that exist today were played with steel needles (excluding vertical cuts), and fortunately there are hundreds of thousands of near-mint records still around, each and every one having being played with steel needles. There is also a downside of thorns and bamboos: they will overheat and damage some records, like Grey Gulls and many other dime-labels sold in the 20s and 30s, and definitely are not compatible with post mid forties modern records, mainly US-made softer mixes with no abrasives (European production kept abrasives in the mix until the mid fifties). Another limitation is that thorns and bamboos will not resist to high modulations: I have a number of records that cause the thorn to crack at exactly the same place, when they have to ride a high modulation, that is easily overcome with a steel needle. Nevertheless, with these caveats, I utilize thorns whenever I can, as I like their sound with the natural low pass filter that they impart, making the hiss inaudible.

Have you used Ibota wax on your records with thorn or bamboo needles? Ibota wax has been used by Japanese 78rpm collectors for about 100 years to prove that it protects records even with using steel needles.

Watanabehi wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:38 am
Have you used Ibota wax on your records with thorn or bamboo needles? Ibota wax has been used by Japanese 78rpm collectors for about 100 years to prove that it protects records even with using steel needles.

audiophile102 wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:07 pm I have purchased Watanabehi's bamboo needles on ebay and I think they are great. The steel needles are so loud that I end up leaving the room and listening in the hallway. My victrola 8-12 sounds warmer and with less surface noise with bamboo needles. The higher frequencies are retained if I leave the lid up. I never tried cactus needles, but I remain satisfied with bamboo needles.

gunnarthefeisty wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:41 am Where do you Americans get your thorn/bamboo/cactus needles from, are BCNs the preferred choice?

JerryVan wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:14 am

gunnarthefeisty wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:41 am Where do you Americans get your thorn/bamboo/cactus needles from, are BCNs the preferred choice?

If I'm not mistaken, Hideki's bamboo needles come out of Oregon and are sold on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/255879400273?h ... R6Td2outYQ

I have never used them, so this is not an endorsement. Just a source within the U.S., if that's what you're asking for. As for other sources of non-metallic needles, I suppose an "American" could buy them from just about anywhere on the globe.