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I thought this an important enough subject to take the Vic III outside and photograph it in natural light. Here are the pics.

Based on this evidence, the original dealer color chart, and other things that have popped up here, this is where I come down:

1. Was golden oak lighter than fumed oak when machines left the factory? Yes, clearly.

2. Can many golden oak finishes--especially those on items not stored in good conditions--be darker than fumed oak examples after 100 years. Yes, clearly.

So is it accurate to say that NOW golden oak is always darker than fumed on period pieces with original finishes. No

Is it accurate to say that NOW golden oak is always lighter than fumed on period pieces with original finishes. No

It all depends on what has happened to those finishes over time.

The best way to tell the difference NOW? I'd vote for the difference is color tones. Amber aging to a chocolate brown = golden. A cooler color with a hint of gray undertones = fumed.

Clay

P.S. It is a gorgeous day here. Clear and 70 headed toward 80. I should go outside more.

Thank you, George, Clay, and the others, for a very interesting discussion!

I've been wanting to jump into this topic with both feet for a while, but I've been pretty gun-shy, knowing that it can be a very controversial and hotly debated one.

I hope we've established a few basic pointers that might perhaps be useful to determine at least a couple of different finishes, and I hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers with some of my assumptions.

My quest is for knowledge, wherever it leads me, and I have the utmost respect for you all.

Fran

Was golden oak lighter than fumed oak when machines left the factory?

I thought I would respond so I could add some confusion to this topic.

I have three of the Victor finish sample sets.

On one, Fumed appears darker, on another it appears about the same, and on the third Fumed is noticeably lighter.

These photos were taken today under identical conditions.

Hi all,
The question is did all of these receive the same amount of UV exposure over the years? I think we may never know unless they were protected in envelopes and even then we do not know if any were out in the light for significant periods of time.
Allen

Silvertone wrote:

Was golden oak lighter than fumed oak when machines left the factory?

I thought I would respond so I could add some confusion to this topic.

I have three of the Victor finish sample sets.

On one, Fumed appears darker, on another it appears about the same, and on the third Fumed is noticeably lighter.

These photos were taken today under identical conditions.

Fascinating. Never having seen one of these "up close and personal," are the originals pictures of wood blocks or real wood blocks? Are they dated anywhere? If they are actual wood blocks, do you know their history? The thought being that actual wood blocks would age quite differently depending on how they were kept just like phonograph finishes. And what Allen just said.

Also it looks like the bottom set has visible finish damage. The finish on the golden oak sample in particular looks very uneven and without the gloss it should have. Is that the case, or is it just an artifact of photography.

To my eye row 1 looks accurate. Row 2 looks like what I would expect to see on still good finishes that have aged moderately. And row 3 looks damaged.

Just out of curiosity how did you come by three. These have got to be rare survivors.

Clay

Interesting! The left bottom-most sample looks to my eyes, the spitting image of the finish on my C 19 #96451.

Fran

These finish sample charts have real wood blocks that were presumably finished in the cabinet factory to the same standards as the cabinets. The Circassian Walnut samples do not appear to use Circassian veneer, but the other samples are made from the veneers that they represent.

These are mounted on canvas and they fold to fit into a case. The case protects these from sunlight, but the samples do rub against each other and that accounts for the damage that you see. Also, on the Golden Oak finishes there are some reflections of the surroundings. I tried to shield these as I took the pictures and was only moderately successful. The Fumed Oak, having no gloss, didn't have these reflections.

You are correct, these are hard to find. I've been on the lookout for these for decades.

My fumed C19, #140237, isn't exactly like any of them at this stage in its life, but if forced I probably say its maybe halfway between #1 in row 1 and #1 in row 3 in color with a sheen about like #1 in row 3.

By the way, maybe I should clarify that it is the golden oak in row 3 that looks damaged from the picture. The fumed not so much.

I can't think of anything that would have gotten the super protection of the finish that behind the back bracket on the Victor outside horn machines got on the Diamond Disc machines. I guess the best we can do is the inside of the record compartment door and inside the lid. It might be interesting to see what might be lurking behind cygnet horn support brackets on some of the Edison cylinder machines.

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Thanks Silvertone. Hope I run across a good one one day.

Clay

I should clarify that it is the golden oak in row 3 that looks damaged from the picture.

I think that cloudy area you are seeing is a reflection. I took these photos outside.

Just two quick points. As for piano technician, I deal with pre 1930 wood finishes on a daily basis, and Silvertone's Victor samples point one in the right direction. The fumed oak samples are the colour which I have always accepted as fumed oak.
Secondly, when looking at black and white photographs in brochures an such, one must remember that panchromatic film was used rarely before 1930. The orthochromatic film then in general use registered colours at the red-orange end of the spectrum as gray to black. Hence reddish grille cloth would look black in the prints. This is another reason all those snapshots taken before the 1950s make the women look as if the were wearing black lipstick