The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

krkey1 wrote:That is what I am arguing for, seems some people disagree though with the educating the new collectors though.

Nobody is arguing against education. What we are trying to tell you is that nobody is going to take the time and spend the money to produce this book. The market is so small that it would not sell well or be a worthwhile endeavor for most people. What you can do however, is gain experience by attending shows or talking to experienced collectors. A great thing about this very forum is that you can post a questionable machine and there is enough knowledge here to properly identify a fake.

Really nobody would.

I collect more things than just phonographs.

On my library shelf is a book just dedicated the indepth analysis of Richmond Rifles manufactured by the Confederates states from 1861-1865.

I collect Medieval Seal Stamps. This is truly an obscure hobby compared to ours yet it gets a book-https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802008674/_e ... 5RQBL1XKZV

I have the book.

So how is it these very small specialized fields of collecting can get a book to protect their collectors but we can't

krkey1 wrote:So how is it these very small specialized fields of collecting can get a book to protect their collectors but we can't

Then write one!

HisMastersVoice wrote:

krkey1 wrote:So how is it these very small specialized fields of collecting can get a book to protect their collectors but we can't

Then write one!

I am trying to get knowledgeable people to see a problem, I don't have enough knowledge but I know the Medieval Seals guys can get a book so can we!

Here is another example for you. The scariest item to collect from the Civil War. Confederate belt buckles.

Very expensive far more expensive than phonographs.

Manufactured only for four years , with most of the manufacturing records lost.

The original dies were used in the early 1900s at fairs, now tell me how do you tell the difference between a 150 year old patina and a 110 year old patina.

Modern manufacturers make EXACT replicas.

Far few collectors of these buckles than us yet they got the book I am calling for-https://www.amazon.com/Confederate-Buck ... 0967073111

Now they face far more problems than we do with even far more tricksters yet they managed to handle it. They can even pick out the early 1900s repros.

Yet we with far more people and with far less problems can't address this in print. Seriously who are we kidding. The kindest view available is that we as a hobby are being lethargic.

krkey1 wrote:That is what I am arguing for, seems some people disagree though with the educating the new collectors though.

How insulting, I don't think your statement is even close to accurate, nor is it warranted.

YES, I agree that more needs to be done to educate current, and future collectors. Many of us spend a great deal of our time doing just that, and oftentimes thanklessly. It seems you've just proven my point.

I believe, that you seem to particularly disagree in the how to accomplish the education of future collectors. It's been stated by several members in this thread (including myself) that self education through well established publications is probably the best way for new collectors to learn and understand the artifacts pertaining to this hobby.

You have repeatedly called for "someone" to publish a "book of fakes". Maybe that's an entertaining prospect, but how exactly would you approach such a project? How would you propose to include future renditions of any "fakes"? How much time will you invest in such an enormous undertaking? Or are you simply trying to volunteer others for your project?

How can anyone predict what might be produced in the future? How would anyone compile a comprehensive list of fakes? Are they already well documented and established somewhere other than the few posts found here, at the Talking Machine Forum, and on the ever-changing listings of eBAY?

Why would anyone not URGE (or even compel) the use of those already well documented sources (which include PRIMARY historical sources, BTW), over all else? One thing is certain: accurate documented histories of a large percentage of original artifacts already exist, and those well established knowledge bases need to be added to, not distracted from.

In this thread this message has been repeated over and over, even by those whom have contributed ceaselessly to the historical knowledge base we all need, why do you choose to ignore their opinions, and even insult them with your post?

It seems to me that the energy could, and should, be better spent by more individuals contributing to the accurate historical documentation of extant artifacts, not the fakes of those artifacts.

Just my 2 pennies.

Best,
Fran

Really you don't think some long time collectors disagree, if so then why do some of them lie about refinishing and lie about reproduction parts on their machines then. It seems to me they rather strongly don't want their fellow collectors to have the knowledge to discern this, after it cuts into their wallet.

You have repeatedly called for "someone" to publish a "book of fakes.

KK Actually I have called for the hobby to acknowledge the problem

Maybe that's an entertaining prospect, but how exactly would you approach such a project?

KK Team work with knowledgeable individuals, the same way the other hobbies do....

How would you propose to include future renditions of any "fakes"?

KK Updated guides, the same way the other hobbies do....

How much time will you invest in such an enormous undertaking?

KK I am willing to help as I have stated before

Or are you simply trying to volunteer others for your project?

KK I am trying to get people to see a rather obvious glaring problem and address it, like the other hobbies have


How can anyone predict what might be produced in the future?

KK By looking at current trends, for example we know it is easier now then ever to make virtually identical cabinets and decals

How would anyone compile a comprehensive list of fakes?

KK By making a list and updating it.

Are they already well documented and established somewhere other than the few posts found here, at the Talking Machine Forum, and on the ever-changing listings of eBAY?

KK No clue, hence my bring up the problem

Why would anyone not URGE (or even compel) the use of those already well documented sources (which include PRIMARY historical sources, BTW), over all else? One thing is certain: accurate documented histories of a large percentage of original artifacts already exist, and those well established knowledge bases need to be added to, not distracted from.

KK How is making a book on fakes distracting from this. You can multitask you know

In this thread this message has been repeated over and over, even by those whom have contributed ceaselessly to the historical knowledge base we all need, why do you choose to ignore their opinions, and even insult them with your post?

KK I have and how so? I guess you missed my asking questions about the " Cecil Opera"

It seems to me that the energy could, and should, be better spent by more individuals contributing to the accurate historical documentation of extant artifacts, not the fakes of those artifacts.

KK You can do both you do get this right

Just my 3 cents

Kris

Here's my 4 cents:

I've asked you to stop this privately, now I'm doing so publicly. If you continue to be confrontational I'm going to place your account on temporary ban.

Just my 5 cents

Someone confronted me and I responded by answering her questions is now considered confrontational.

It seems very telling that I am getting a lot of opposition for simply trying to make reproductions and fakes easily visible to the new collectors. Gee we don't respond this way to crapophones but if it's something we might have then let just not discuss it too much....

Go ahead delete the thread, ban away but I hope enough people wonder why some of their fellow collectors are so opposed to making this knowledge readily available.....

Take a deep breathe, count to ten, then go for a nice walk. These are the things that we can do today. Writing a book regarding what to look for when evaluating a machine seems positive, but probably won't happen today.

Attacking each other is not positive. Writing a book does not require that everyone agrees that it is a good idea. It may be time to put this one to bed. Those in favor of a book can figure out how to make it happen. Those opposed are free to ignore said book. I don't think that unethical behavior is rampant in this group. I think that it is quite the opposite. This forum seems to be generally open and helpful, and I am grateful for that. I bought my first Victrola in 1975. There was next to nothing available for information . Because of people like Tim, George and others, that has thankfully changed for the better.

Peace