The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I bought a replica 1895 Berliner made by M.J. Stehlic of Canada in 1987. I don't expect to get rich on this sale but would appreciate any help of a reasonable value. Mr. Stehlic is know for quality reproduction parts. Thanks for any help. Offers are welcome. Jerry Blais

How accurate a replica is this? Anyone???

Judging by this picture of an original it seems to be mechanically quite close except for the horn.

I still have a flyer for these when they were for sale. As an owner of a real one, I could never understand why he choose to go with a very inaccurate name plate & horn. Especially when you can buy very accurate copy's of the plate & horn from another Canadian collector for a very good price.
IMO, it would have finished the machine much nicer.

Did an early version of the Berliner have a more simple cone horn or was my replica builder taking a short cut? Thanks, Jerry

Jerry B. wrote:Did an early version of the Berliner have a more simple cone horn or was my replica builder taking a short cut? Thanks, Jerry

And you have been buying & selling for how long now Jerry..????....... . Looks like your getting rusty. Guess you need to hit the books again.

gramophone78 wrote:

Jerry B. wrote:Did an early version of the Berliner have a more simple cone horn or was my replica builder taking a short cut? Thanks, Jerry

And you have been buying & selling for how long now Jerry..????....... . Looks like your getting rusty. Guess you need to hit the books again.

Jerry,

I've seen at least one example of an original lever wind Berliner with a brass conical horn, and I have photos of it. Here's a March/April 1897 flyer with such a horn illustrated. It's possible that these simple conical horns may have also been used on hand driven Berliners, but I have no documentation for that other than some Kammer & Reinhardt machines. In any event, the use of these conical horns on American Berliners was limited.

George P.

phonogfp wrote:

gramophone78 wrote:

Jerry B. wrote:Did an early version of the Berliner have a more simple cone horn or was my replica builder taking a short cut? Thanks, Jerry

And you have been buying & selling for how long now Jerry..????....... . Looks like your getting rusty. Guess you need to hit the books again.

Jerry,

I've seen at least one example of an original lever wind Berliner with a brass conical horn, and I have photos of it. Here's a March/April 1897 flyer with such a horn illustrated. It's possible that these simple conical horns may have also been used on hand driven Berliners, but I have no documentation for that other than some Kammer & Reinhardt machines. In any event, the use of these conical horns on American Berliners was limited.

George P.

George, There is in fact a period photo in your first "compendium" that shows the interior of the Berliner plant. In that photo you can clearly a row of machine's with black conical horns. However, it too is not from 1895. The brass plate is not even close to the original(for 1895)but this is just my opinion. Also, I have never seen nor heard of a Berliner "hand-wind" as shown by Estott with a conical horn. Like the engraved brass plate (not stamped white metal)....I would say both were made like that as a cost saving measure. This could also be said for the non-gutta-percha drive wheel.... .

Now I'm curious about K&R having a conical horn. Unless a repro....I have only seen models made by them with a paper mache horn and with decoration. I have never seen a K&R with an "original" conical horn in brass or paper mache. I would love to see that... .

gramophone78 wrote: George, There is in fact a period photo in your first "compendium" that shows the interior of the Berliner plant. In that photo you can clearly a row of machine's with black conical horns. However, it too is not from 1895. The brass plate is not even close to the original(for 1895)but this is just my opinion. Also, I have never seen nor heard of a Berliner "hand-wind" as shown by Estott with a conical horn. Like the engraved brass plate (not stamped white metal)....I would say both were made like that as a cost saving measure. This could also be said for the non-gutta-percha drive wheel.... .

Now I'm curious about K&R having a conical horn. Unless a repro....I have only seen models made by them with a paper mache horn and with decoration. I have never seen a K&R with an "original" conical horn in brass or paper mache. I would love to see that... .

Since the discussion of this reproduction Berliner had moved from its general accuracy to the specifics of the horn, I limited my response to that subject.

Thank you for mentioning the photo on page 71 of The Talking Machine Compendium. Robert Sanders dated that photo to 1899. The machines pictured on the shelves appear to be Style No.2 Gramophones being prepared for export.

As for the horns on Kammer & Reinhardt machines, I'm hoping that Starkton will weigh in with the definitive answer, as I don't claim to be an authority on European machines. My observation of K&R machines with conical horns was based upon photographs such as that found in V.K. Chew's Talking Machines (Her Majesty's Stationery Office, A Science Museum Book, 1967)on page 23. The 80th Birthday Exhibition Catalogue (published by The City of London Phonograph & Gramophone Society, 1991), Figure 9, shows an American hand driven Berliner with a brass conical horn, but I've never seen any original documentation showing they were offered that way.

George P.

phonogfp wrote:

gramophone78 wrote: George, There is in fact a period photo in your first "compendium" that shows the interior of the Berliner plant. In that photo you can clearly a row of machine's with black conical horns. However, it too is not from 1895. The brass plate is not even close to the original(for 1895)but this is just my opinion. Also, I have never seen nor heard of a Berliner "hand-wind" as shown by Estott with a conical horn. Like the engraved brass plate (not stamped white metal)....I would say both were made like that as a cost saving measure. This could also be said for the non-gutta-percha drive wheel.... .

Now I'm curious about K&R having a conical horn. Unless a repro....I have only seen models made by them with a paper mache horn and with decoration. I have never seen a K&R with an "original" conical horn in brass or paper mache. I would love to see that... .

Since the discussion of this reproduction Berliner had moved from its general accuracy to the specifics of the horn, I limited my response to that subject.

Thank you for mentioning the photo on page 71 of The Talking Machine Compendium. Robert Sanders dated that photo to 1899. The machines pictured on the shelves appear to be Style No.2 Gramophones being prepared for export.

As for the horns on Kammer & Reinhardt machines, I'm hoping that Starkton will weigh in with the definitive answer, as I don't claim to be an authority on European machines. My observation of K&R machines with conical horns was based upon photographs such as that found in V.K. Chew's Talking Machines (Her Majesty's Stationery Office, A Science Museum Book, 1967)on page 23. The 80th Birthday Exhibition Catalogue (published by The City of London Phonograph & Gramophone Society, 1991), Figure 9, shows an American hand driven Berliner with a brass conical horn, but I've never seen any original documentation showing they were offered that way.

George P.

Your welcome George. As you already know.....that small group of the late Mr. Sanders photo's are fantastic to say the least. A cornucopia of information can be derived from them. Again, just my opinion. One last comment regarding the horn on this "repro" machine. I could not understand why the maker used screws to hold the leather elbow on the horn. I only know this to have been done on "Canadian" models made much later post-1899....????.
I hope Starkton can show us a K&R with just such a "plain" horn.
Just a quick plug....Jean Paul Agnard makes a very good Berliner "funnel" horn that is as close as you can get and at a very, very fair price. The "stamped" white metal Berliner name plate is "exact".

I'm surprised that no one commented on the approx. $4000.00 USD value placed on an original in the makers flyer from 1993-94. My how times have changed.

I also don't want to highjack Jerry's "for sale" ad with all this....sorry Jerry.