The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Did Caruso record for any other label than Victor?
I have a copy of Vesti La Giuba on a Pan American disc. I was curious to know if it was a pirated copy or an original recording. I wish I had the Victor record to compare it with.
Most of my records are packed away so at present I don't have access to it to take a picture of the label.

Yes he did. He made recordings for Zonophone and the Anglo-Italian Commerce Company on cylinder, the AICC recordings were also issued by Pathé two different cylinder formats and their own vertical cut discs.

You may want to take a look at the last paragraph: http://www.mainspringpress.com/caruso_opdisc.html

howardpgh wrote:Did Caruso record for any other label than Victor?
I have a copy of Vesti La Giuba on a Pan American disc. I was curious to know if it was a pirated copy or an original recording. I wish I had the Victor record to compare it with.
Most of my records are packed away so at present I don't have access to it to take a picture of the label.

You'll have no trouble at all finding a recording of the Victor record on Youtube that you can compare to yours.

WDC wrote:Yes he did. He made recordings for Zonophone and the Anglo-Italian Commerce Company on cylinder, the AICC recordings were also issued by Pathé two different cylinder formats and their own vertical cut discs.

You may want to take a look at the last paragraph: http://www.mainspringpress.com/caruso_opdisc.html

He recorded for the Gramophone Co. too.

The Pan American must be a pirate / bootleg. There's also more than one recording he did of that aria. Only once recorded for Victor.

I have some Pan American 78's stashed away and my memory is telling me that they're crappy dubbings from other 78's, except for a Eddie Cantor one that is not.

Pan American pressings are master pressings from Victor and Gramophone Company matrices, not dubs. Same as Opera Discs. They're excellent quality shellac if they aren't in unworn condition too. They tend to be better quality than what Victor was using at the time.

Sean

OrthoSean wrote:Pan American pressings are master pressings from Victor and Gramophone Company matrices, not dubs. Same as Opera Discs.

Pan American went on (at least) well into the 1940's.

For the Caruso things this link has a little info.

http://78records.wordpress.com/2011/06/ ... te-labels/

No, they're two completely different companies. I have several Caruso Pan Americans and others of Ruffo and Scotti. Not one is a dub, I assure you. I know what a dub sounds like. None of the Pan Americans I have are electroplated "copies" either. After reading Allan's blurb again about these, I'll have to ask him what examples of these they've documented. Remember that all of the 1902 Caruso G&Ts were "copies" after the stampers wore out and I've never heard one that sounded horrible unless it was worn from being played with a steel needle, but a first generation pressing does sound more present. Further on the subject of electroplating originals, and maybe more than anyone cares to know, there was a collector in the 1960s who did this with prefect originals of some G&T and Polydor items and had vinyl pressings struck from them. They sound so good, you'd never know.

Sean

OrthoSean wrote:No, they're two completely different companies. I have several Caruso Pan Americans and others of Ruffo and Scotti. Not one is a dub, I assure you. I know what a dub sounds like. None of the Pan Americans I have are electroplated "copies" either. After reading Allan's blurb again about these, I'll have to ask him what examples of these they've documented. Remember that all of the 1902 Caruso G&Ts were "copies" after the stampers wore out and I've never heard one that sounded horrible unless it was worn from being played with a steel needle, but a first generation pressing does sound more present. Further on the subject of electroplating originals, and maybe more than anyone cares to know, there was a collector in the 1960s who did this with prefect originals of some G&T and Polydor items and had vinyl pressings struck from them. They sound so good, you'd never know.

Sean

In 1902 and for several years afterwards, all records would have been played with steel needles.

To the best of my knowledge, the first patent for fibre needles was granted to the B&H Fibre Manufacturing Company of Chicago on 12 November 1907.

Victor acquired the rights to these needles in late 1910, and in the UK The Gramophone Company introduced them in early 1912.

epigramophone wrote:In 1902 and for several years afterwards, all records would have been played with steel needles.

To the best of my knowledge, the first patent for fibre needles was granted to the B&H Fibre Manufacturing Company of Chicago on 12 November 1907.

Victor acquired the rights to these needles in late 1910, and in the UK The Gramophone Company introduced them in early 1912.

I should have been a little more clear

What I should have said is if you are lucky enough to find a copy that hasn't been "steeled" to death. They're certainly out there, but in short supply! To hear a 1902 Caruso G&T that wasn't played over and over to death is quite an astounding listening experience. I'm lucky enough to have found quite a large stash of very early discs from one collection that the owner had bought from unsold dealer stock in the early 1930s when he was a teenage collector. He never played them and they are amazing to listen to. They won't be seeing an acoustic machine in my lifetime!

Sean

Thanks All,
This forum is amazing! Such a great pool of knowledge.