The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

This is my initial posting to the forum, and I hope the question will not be considered too esoteric.

In regard to Victor's first ten-inch, black label electrically recorded release, we are told that it is Victor 19626, the infamous (although scarce) Joan or Arkansas and Buenos Aires, recorded on March 16th and 20th, 1925, respectively.

A gander at the EDVR shows the Trinity Choir recording two titles on March 4th, matrices BE 32166 and BE 32167, that eventually became Victor 19621. The titles are Prayer of Thanksgiving, and Hark, Hark My Soul.

Despite the BE designation, it is further stated that electric recordings, apart from the Miniature Concert 12" disk of February 26th, did not commence until March 11th, when pianist Olga Stokowski recorded several unreleased selections.

All that said, my question is that I have, in my lowly fifteen years of collecting, never seen a copy of Victor 19621 to confirm or deny whether it is acoustic or electric. I had never even known of this until recently.

Thus, does anyone have Victor 19621 so that I can stop obsessing as to whether Victor snuck in an electric record before the fabled 19626?

Thank you!

As you alluded to, this source is probably the best information you'll get. Here it is, for the rest of us:

For Victor 19621 (in part), http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.ph ... anksgiving

For Victor 19626 (in part), http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.ph ... f_Arkansas

Tracking down all the links in both of the above citations will yield more info. Note that two sources verified that 19626 is electrical, but another source implied that 19621 was not. IMO, it would be a challenge to distinguish between electric and acoustic, given the early dates of these recordings. The Mask & Wig Club of the Univ. of Pennsylvania is listed as the performers on 19626. You might try contacting the library and/or music department at Penn to see whether they would have a copy of the recording, and would be willing to furnish you a single copy "for study purposes," as provided for by the Copyright acts.

Try this link: http://www.maskandwig.com/history.html . Note the links on the right side of that page for Mask & Wig Archives and University of Pennsylvania Archives. Drill down all the interior links and ferret out more info.

Google is your friend!

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the Trinity Choir record in indeed electrical and the claim for Mask & Wig Club erroneous.

I wouldn't know, as I don't have the record. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hard to distinguish as other Victor electricals going back to March of that year are unmistakable at first listen.

Try this: http://www.maskandwig.com/archive/Annua ... 0Waltz.mp3

And this: http://www.maskandwig.com/archive/Annua ... Medley.mp3

[above links don't work now---see my later post below]

There's a wealth of stuff in the archive! Here's the sheet music for "Buenos Aires":

http://www.maskandwig.com/archive/Annua ... 0Aires.pdf

Many thanks to both of you!

Even if Victor 19621 were indeed electric, whatever minute segment of the population that even cares about such a thing would probably still go along with the Victor 19626 information because it's standard.

That said, I did access Victor 19626 on this radio show:

http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/30307

I can say, at least that I've listened to them. Oddly, I live in southeastern Pennsylvania, and I really would have thought that I would have come across the record by now, since it concerns a U Penn production and was a regional release.

I like waltzes, and I must say that Buenos Aires was just ok. Most notable was Arthur Hall's butchery of the pronunciation of that city.

I LOVE the transition period from acoustic to electric recording in early to mid-1925. I must also respectfully disagree regarding the sound quality of Victor's early electrics. The only previous electric recording, Victor 35753, A Miniature Concert, featuring Murray, Burr, Wiedoeft, Banta, Silver, Campbell, Croxton, and Meyer has a fine sound, and it dates to February 26th. Victor seemed so concerned until late April in recording their Red Seal talent: McCormack, Casals, Rachmaninoff, Gigli, Lashanska, Crabbe, Johnson, and Maztenauer. I have the Cortot selections from March 21st, and am working on finding the Matzenauer recordings from March 18th and 19th. I like that they still used acoustic era instrumentation and arrangements for many of the selections, because, darn it, I've heard enough acoustic recordings and would like to know what the orchestra actually sounded like before accompaniment became either piano or more string-based later that year.

The arrangement for John McCormack's recording of Moonlight and Roses--April 23rd--is quite lush, and really shows the beauty of the new recording method. Odd that the previous selection, When You and I Were Seventeen, has a rather obvious acoustic-era arrangement.

One other thing, although I lack access to Columbia's matrix list, I do have 329-D, by the Columbians, recorded March 7th. That's far in advance of Victor, who didn't even do any dance records until March 26th, then a few with Waring's Pennsylvanians in early April. Again, the sound is fine, much better than Art Gillham's late February sessions, which are a tad bit rough, sound-wise.

That doesn't bring us any closer to whether or not Victor 19621 is electric or acoustic, but it's been fine to hear what others think, and I certainly welcome anything further.

Stay tuned.

Someone here must have a copy of Victor 19621. We'll get this all sorted out (I hope.)

It's curious that the UC Santa Barbara website shows Victor 19621's matrix prefix as "BE," whereas the prefixes for Victor 35753 and Victor 19626 are "CVE" and "BVE," respectively. [Victor 35753 is CVE-31874-3 and CVE-31875-4, Victor 19626 is BVE-32160-2 and BVE-32170-2; Victor 35753 was recorded before, but released after, Victor 19626.] What does the matrix prefix "BE" mean? Presumably not an electric recording using Western Electric equipment, but does it refer to a solitary release of a Victor in-house electrical recording attempt? Or does it mean something else/is its meaning lost to time?

Best wishes, Mark

Rastus10 wrote:
I LOVE the transition period from acoustic to electric recording in early to mid-1925. I must also respectfully disagree regarding the sound quality of Victor's early electrics. The only previous electric recording, Victor 35753, A Miniature Concert, featuring Murray, Burr, Wiedoeft, Banta, Silver, Campbell, Croxton, and Meyer has a fine sound, and it dates to February 26th. Victor seemed so concerned until late April in recording their Red Seal talent: McCormack, Casals, Rachmaninoff, Gigli, Lashanska, Crabbe, Johnson, and Maztenauer. I have the Cortot selections from March 21st, and am working on finding the Matzenauer recordings from March 18th and 19th. I like that they still used acoustic era instrumentation and arrangements for many of the selections, because, darn it, I've heard enough acoustic recordings and would like to know what the orchestra actually sounded like before accompaniment became either piano or more string-based later that year.

Now that I've actually listened to 19626 I agree that the sound quality is far superior to the boxy acoustics we're all used to hearing. BTW, there is definitely at least one saxophone playing in the waltz, but the personnel listing on the UC/SB site doesn't mention saxes. So much for accuracy and thoroughness of Victor's log books!

BTW, the links I posted above, to the Mask & Wig archives mp3 recordings, are dead. Instead, I am able to access them through this:
http://archive.maskandwig.com/
Then click on "Annual Productions," go to "1925 Joan of Arkansas," to "Audio," and make selection. Tedious, but it works. Don't know why the direct links I posted now give a 404 error

There are some discrepancies, too, in the performance vs. the sheet music. E.g., in m.4 there should be an a' printed over the f#' in the melodic (top) line, treble staff of the sheet. And the vocalist omits to sing the notated e' in m. 12 of the refrain, instead holding over the b flat from bar 11. This actually makes more musical sense, as it is congruent with the tied over a' in mm. 15-16. It's also easier to sing (if you have trouble with a descending tritone)!

victorIIvictor wrote:It's curious that the UC Santa Barbara website shows Victor 19621's matrix prefix as "BE," whereas the prefixes for Victor 35753 and Victor 19626 are "CVE" and "BVE," respectively. [Victor 35753 is CVE-31874-3 and CVE-31875-4, Victor 19626 is BVE-32160-2 and BVE-32170-2; Victor 35753 was recorded before, but released after, Victor 19626.] What does the matrix prefix "BE" mean? Presumably not an electric recording using Western Electric equipment, but does it refer to a solitary release of a Victor in-house electrical recording attempt? Or does it mean something else/is its meaning lost to time?

Best wishes, Mark

I think it's an early designation for a 10" electrical disc. I wonder if there are early electric 12" inchers with a CE prefix.

To my knowledge, Victor didn't attempt to skirt the Western Electric licensing by designing their own system.

Rastus10 wrote:One other thing, although I lack access to Columbia's matrix list, I do have 329-D, by the Columbians, recorded March 7th. That's far in advance of Victor, who didn't even do any dance records until March 26th, then a few with Waring's Pennsylvanians in early April. Again, the sound is fine, much better than Art Gillham's late February sessions, which are a tad bit rough, sound-wise.

According to The Columbia Master Book Discography by Brooks and Rust, most Columbia masters, except those destined for Harmony, were electric from W140404 onward. Here are the dance band sides shown between then and 7 March:

140409: The Mandoliers -- Only a Weaver of Dreams (2 March, 4 rejected takes; 21 March, takes 5 and 7 on 345-D)
140410: The Mandoliers -- The Melody That Made You Mine (2 March, 3 rejected takes; 21 March, take 4 on 345-D)
140413: Sam Lanin & His Roseland Orchestra -- Egyptian Echoes (3 March; takes 1 and 2 on 325-D)
140414: Sam Lanin & His Roseland Orchestra -- Hungaria (3 March; takes 2 and 3 on 325-D)

The underlined takes in Rust may only be takes approved for issue--some shown as underlined may not have actually been commercially pressed.

-HA