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Would some one mind helping me understand the numbers in the runoff area of my old Victor records??

I have figured out the main number on the bottom is the catalog number. Most have some smaller letters or numbers before the catalog number, what are they for?

I have also figured out the number on the left side of the record is the take number, but what is the number on the right??

Some have "VE" in an oval at the top some in a diamond and some don't have anything at the top. Oval = acoustic?; diamond = electronic?; blank = ??????

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this for me.

VV XI wrote:Would some one mind helping me understand the numbers in the runoff area of my old Victor records??

I have figured out the main number on the bottom is the catalog number. Most have some smaller letters or numbers before the catalog number, what are they for?

I have also figured out the number on the left side of the record is the take number, but what is the number on the right??

Some have "VE" in an oval at the top some in a diamond and some don't have anything at the top. Oval = acoustic?; diamond = electronic?; blank = ??????

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this for me.

The "VE", whether in a diamond or oval, indicates an electric recording. The system used varies, according to the mark.

Bill

You can find this information at the Encyclodedic Discocraphy of Victor Records in the resources section.
Those numbers do tell an interesting story about a record.
Some times you will find an old catalog number on a later record. I have some double sided Batwing Victors that have the older numbers on the runout as well as the label number. The tiny number at the 9:00 position is usually the take number. I don't know what all the little letters that show up around (usually in front of) the stamped label number mean. Nor do I know what the "H" by the hole on the back of some single side records mean.

howardpgh wrote:You can find this information at the Encyclodedic Discocraphy of Victor Records in the resources section.
Those numbers do tell an interesting story about a record.
Some times you will find an old catalog number on a later record. I have some double sided Batwing Victors that have the older numbers on the runout as well as the label number. The tiny number at the 9:00 position is usually the take number. I don't know what all the little letters that show up around (usually in front of) the stamped label number mean. Nor do I know what the "H" by the hole on the back of some single side records mean.

The resources section did not help with the other numbers on the run out area, but it did give me some more insight into the matrix numbers, thanks.

Being as I am new to the research end of this, what is a "Batwing"?

In reference to the old catalog # and later record; I have one record (17164) that threw me for a loop. Recorded in 1911 & 1919, but not released until 1923. Funny they would record something then just sit on it all that time before release.

Anyone else have any insight into the other numbers in the run out area? Thanks again.

VV XI wrote: In reference to the old catalog # and later record; I have one record (17164) that threw me for a loop. Recorded in 1911 & 1919, but not released until 1923. Funny they would record something then just sit on it all that time before release.

Those were most likely released sides that were recoupled when Victor converted the previously single sided Red Seal line to double sided in 1923

I don't want to be curt, but before this all gets too convoluted, as suggested above, there are some good online resources that can also help you untangle some of this stuff.

And let us not forget the ever popular "s/8" for dubbed records.

S/8 denoted a dubbed matrix in the acoustic era; later in the electric era an R in the take digit position indicated it was a dubbing.

Viva-Tonal wrote:S/8 denoted a dubbed matrix in the acoustic era; later in the electric era an R in the take digit position indicated it was a dubbing.

I learn a little more every time I check in here, thanks.

Oh, and I did find out what a "bat wing" is.

VV XI wrote:Oh, and I did find out what a "bat wing" is.

Bat Wing is a description of one of the many incarnations of the Victor label.
This is a Bat Wing...
http://www.tedstaunton.com/labels/1910_ ... ictor.html

The site that I have linked is a great source of information about many record labels.
Here is its main index...
http://www.tedstaunton.com/site_map/site_map.html

James.

Ted Staunton's site, to which James directs you in the above post, has some interesting comments about the graphic elements in the label pictures. But Mr. Staunton misidentifies the source of some labels. For example,

http://www.tedstaunton.com/labels/1950_ ... meo_2.html

The label pictured has nothing to do with the later, Philadelphia-based Cameo label. Indeed, the "Printed in Canada" legend on the label shown makes this clear. The Cameo label pictured here is a subsidiary of the (Canadian) Solitaire label of the early 1950s.

For better information about record labels (or at least more labels!), you might want to look at these sites:

http://www.majesticrecord.com/labels.htm

http://78rpmrecord.com/index.htm

As for Victor, my highest recommendation would be for you to purchase the Collector's Guide to Victor Records, available for purchase here:

http://monarchrecs.com/publications.html

By the way, the small letters and sometimes numbers before the catalog number in the runoff are stamper indicators. Thus, "A" would be an early stamper, while "AAA" or "4L" would be stampers manufactured well after the selection was recorded.

Best wishes, Mark