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I decided to re-write my thread and only concentrate on the two hand wind's that are the same. #2337 & # 2492. Both as stated are absolutely identical except the finish. Both machines have a brand on the wood base without the Oct. 29 1895 date. In fact Berliner records with a '95 recording date have the exact same brand .....missing Oct. 29 1895. This leads me to believe that both of these model's were made in 1895. Also, both are constructed with a solid designed flywheel. this is also an early feature to the hand wind model. By 1896, the hand wind was constructed using a flywheel with a three hole design. As shown on the May 16 1896 cover of Scientific American.
Since #2337 has a lower number to #2492....this leads me to believe the "belief" that all copper finish models are of a later date is a "myth".

Clearly Berliner was offering a choice of finishes to his customers. However, by 1896 the "three hole" flywheel version seems to have only the copper finish offered. To date I have not seen this version with black& gold.
So,one can assume the black & gold paint was discontinued. Probably a cost saving measure on Berliners part. No more hand painting.

By 1896 the Berliner records have the Oct. 29 1895 date in the brand and remains unchanged until the end of production.

I have to make another post in order to show all the pics.....sorry. All the above is solely my opinion and observations I have made. 1896 Or Later Berliner Hand Wind.jpg[/attachment]

Might there have been more than one supplier?

Is it prudent to assume that the serial number on the sound box reflects the date of manufacture for the the entire machine? In other words, do you believe the sound boxes were packed with the machines in strict chronological order?

George P.

phonogfp wrote:Is it prudent to assume that the serial number on the sound box reflects the date of manufacture for the the entire machine? In other words, do you believe the sound boxes were packed with the machines in strict chronological order?

George P.

Yes, I do believe that. The two machine's in question are close in serial number and both are missing the Oct. '95 date on the base board brand. Also at this early stage in operation.....why would they not match up?. Were they not (at this time) practically hand made??.
I would like to add (although later) that Berliner in Canada had his machine's and reproducer's serial numbers match. Now why would Berliner start to do this at such a late date??. Knowing this......one has to think he had done this all along.

gramophone78 wrote:

phonogfp wrote:Is it prudent to assume that the serial number on the sound box reflects the date of manufacture for the the entire machine? In other words, do you believe the sound boxes were packed with the machines in strict chronological order?

George P.

Yes, I do believe that. Even if it were not the case.

Then that settles it!

George P.

phonogfp wrote:

gramophone78 wrote:

phonogfp wrote:Is it prudent to assume that the serial number on the sound box reflects the date of manufacture for the the entire machine? In other words, do you believe the sound boxes were packed with the machines in strict chronological order?

George P.

Yes, I do believe that. Even if it were not the case.

Then that settles it!

George P.

. I thought I deleted that. Oh well.......I did now..... . I was going to write "Even if it (the serial number) was not on the case". My bad.
George, I think you will find that hand wind model's that have the three hole flywheel (that have not been altered) have a higher serial number on the reproducer. I have seen as high as # 9***. Given that these two examples are only 155 apart. I would have to think they were assembled during the same week/month??. Therefore, in my opinion.....there were at least two types of finishes offered at that the same time. Again, based on how Berliner conducted his business here in Canada (sequential numbering) . Why would he have done any different when starting out in the US earlier??.

Well, for one thing, Berliner wasn't directly involved in the manufacturing of the machines in the U.S. as far as I know. If that's truly the case, Berliner's later manufacturing practices in Canada would not be relevant. And U.S. Berliners virtually never have matching machine numbers and sound box numbers.

It seems that your contention (regarding "myth") is contradicted by your observations (that all later 3-hole flywheels carry an anodized/wash finish, and all early solid flywheels are painted black with various gilt designs). And if, as John suggests, multiple suppliers were involved, the situation might be even more complicated. In either event, we've seen multiple examples in other firms where earlier and later batches of talking machine parts had become mixed in inventory, resulting in machines that carry later serial numbers but earlier features, and earlier serial numbers with later features.

I don't argue that there may have been two types of finishes offered at the the same time on hand-driven Berliners. But I don't think that "Berliner was offering a choice of finishes to his customers"; not for a $15 machine. I believe - as you stated in your first post - "...that the black and gold paint was discontinued.Probably a cost-saving measure on Berliner's part." And it was replaced by the anodizing/wash. Which suggests that the black-painted machines are generally earlier, and the copper anodized/washed machines are generally later.

George P.

phonogfp wrote:Well, for one thing, Berliner wasn't directly involved in the manufacturing of the machines in the U.S. as far as I know. If that's truly the case, Berliner's later manufacturing practices in Canada would not be relevant. And U.S. Berliners virtually never have matching machine numbers and sound box numbers.

It seems that your contention (regarding "myth") is contradicted by your observations (that all later 3-hole flywheels carry an anodized/wash finish, and all early solid flywheels are painted black with various gilt designs). And if, as John suggests, multiple suppliers were involved, the situation might be even more complicated. In either event, we've seen multiple examples in other firms where earlier and later batches of talking machine parts had become mixed in inventory, resulting in machines that carry later serial numbers but earlier features, and earlier serial numbers with later features.

I don't argue that there may have been two types of finishes offered at the the same time on hand-driven Berliners. But I don't think that "Berliner was offering a choice of finishes to his customers"; not for a $15 machine. I believe - as you stated in your first post - "...that the black and gold paint was discontinued.Probably a cost-saving measure on Berliner's part." And it was replaced by the anodizing/wash. Which suggests that the black-painted machines are generally earlier, and the copper anodized/washed machines are generally later.

George P.

However, my point is that not all the early (pre-1896) machines were finished with black & gold. The copper wash was also available (at least in 1895). In my opinion these two machine's prove this and my belief #2337 was produced before #2492. So, if indeed true......then it is a myth that only the later made (post 1895) machine's were with a copper washed finish. If you agree that two finishes were offer at the same time and at that time Berliner was only offering the $15 machine. Could both finishes have actually been offered at the same price??. One could assume the copper was more "modern" and therefore more popular. So much so that by 1896 (when the three hole came out) all hand wind's were only available with the copper wash finish. I personally find this very interesting two machine's this early and this close in serial number

gramophone78 wrote:Both machines have a brand on the wood base without the Oct. 29 1895 date. In fact Berliner records with a '95 recording date have the exact same brand .....missing Oct. 29 1895. This leads me to believe that both of these model's were made in 1895.

Your conclusion stands on shaky feet when you examine the content of Berliner patent 548,623 of October 29, 1895. It patents a method of making stampers and the subsequent pressing of discs. There was no immediate need to alter the hot-branding on gramophone bases.

The state of affairs was completely different for the patent stamps on gramophone records, which were immediately altered for sure. By the way, I would like to mention that the photo of the "Ghost Dance" Berliner is taken from an ebay auction. Since then, this, perhaps unique, disc is in my collection.