The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Bought a huge lot of 78s. While going through and separating them, I found 3 minty bluebird records in the original sleeves.
I went to play one on my console stereo and the arm slid off when the arm came over and set down on the edge of the record. I picked up the record and looked and noticed it had no lead-in groove. All 3 the same. I looked them up and found they are from the 1933-1934 era (5000 series).
Pretty sure they had record changers by then but there's no way these can work on an auto changer. Were they still making Victrola records at this time? Are these just meant to be played on a manual (non auto changer) player or intended for victrolas?
Can post pics if needed.

The early Victrola changers (10-50, 10-35, RAE 26, for example)each had some provision in their designs to work on records without lead-in grooves, either using small coil springs, leaf springs, or simple gravity. Though they work about 95% of the time, you'll still get a record that sometimes won't play without human intervention. By the mid-30's there was really no reason why a record manufacturer couldn't provide the lead-in groove. My guess is that the growing jukebox market finalized the need for it.
I have some records that have a lead-in groove on one side but not the other! They must have been made during the transition years.
Bob

Columbia briefly had run-in grooves in the fall of 1930, but they didn't last beyond a relative handful of issues. Otherwise, the first American label to use them seems to have been Decca at some point in 1935, followed by the ARC labels in April-May 1936 and Victor in October 1936.

Victor had manufactured record changers for nine years before they added run-in grooves. They aren't *required* for changers and coin-operated machines; they just facilitate the process a bit.

Some videos of late 20s/early 30s changers that use records of the era--

Victor VE 10-35X (1928):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5o6cy78u-E

HMV Model 1 (1928-29):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxWE31dY3CM

Victor RAE-26 (1931):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87P7xygDcs0

-HA

One possibility here is that many Bluebird records were repressings from earlier(scroll)masters which did not originally have lead-in grooves. If you will notice, they also don't have lead-out grooves to the eccentric groove either. You can find many great jazz artists on these records; Jelly Roll Morton Benny Moten, McKinneys Cottonpickers etc. They are very desirable because of being pressed from the original masters rather than being dubbed to new masters. Sometimes they used previously unreleased takes which makes things even more interesting.
On the other hand, I don't know when lead-in grooves came into being and since most of the Bluebirds in my collection contain the abovementioned type of material,I am not aware of whether or not early issues recorded specifically for Bluebird have lead-in grooves. Hopefully someone can shed more light on this.

Jim

phonojim wrote:One possibility here is that many Bluebird records were repressings from earlier(scroll)masters which did not originally have lead-in grooves. If you will notice, they also don't have lead-out grooves to the eccentric groove either. You can find many great jazz artists on these records; Jelly Roll Morton Benny Moten, McKinneys Cottonpickers etc. They are very desirable because of being pressed from the original masters rather than being dubbed to new masters. Sometimes they used previously unreleased takes which makes things even more interesting.
On the other hand, I don't know when lead-in grooves came into being and since most of the Bluebirds in my collection contain the abovementioned type of material,I am not aware of whether or not early issues recorded specifically for Bluebird have lead-in grooves. Hopefully someone can shed more light on this.

Jim

And that they are pressed on better shellac.

Interesting thread. I never knew (or noticed) that Columbia had started that as early as 1930.

phonojim wrote:One possibility here is that many Bluebird records were repressings from earlier(scroll)masters which did not originally have lead-in grooves. If you will notice, they also don't have lead-out grooves to the eccentric groove either. You can find many great jazz artists on these records; Jelly Roll Morton Benny Moten, McKinneys Cottonpickers etc. They are very desirable because of being pressed from the original masters rather than being dubbed to new masters. Sometimes they used previously unreleased takes which makes things even more interesting...Jim

Not always, unfortunately. Occasionally I am disappointed to discover that a Bluebird (or HMV) side of mine of McKinneys, Morton, et al. is actually a dub. These are specified in Rust, but most of the time you can hear the difference with a master pressing. These are maybe 10% of them I think.

Dubs turn up often in pre-packaged album sets of reissues. Assuming that the listener would want to use them with their changers.

It's always disappointing when you open an album reissue of desirable older records (like McKinney's C.P. or what have you) and discover that they are dubs. But they could still be good fodder for the Victrola, if one is inclined.