The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hi all,

I apologize if this has been answered somewhere else in the forum, I tried using the search function but couldn't find the specific answer I was looking for.

I'm wondering what's the easiest way to distinguish the lateral from the vertical cut Pathé records?
I'm not even sure if that's the proper terminology for two different types, maybe someone can set me straight on
this?

Thanks.

How about this thread?

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =3&t=15265

Wow, I really need to sharpen my searching skills - Thanks.

That thread answered the question..

'Any discs from the USA labeled Actuelle, Pathé Actuelle, or Perfect are laterally cut records that you can successfully play on a Victrola'

but what about French Pathé discs? do they have some type of marking on them as well?

French Pathé discs before 1920 will all be vertical discs; after this, vertical records are called 'Saphir' (i.e. sapphire) and laterals are called 'Aiguille' (French for 'needle'). 'Saphir' records were produced in France until circa 1932, well into the electrical era. They were discontinued in the US circa 1926.

Mr. Grumpy asked, "what about French Pathé discs? do they have some type of marking on them as well?"


"I knew.. I knew you were gonna ask me that question!"--Bonnie Bonnell in "The Big Idea," (1934).

Any disk that looks like this:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... platte.jpg

… is vertical cut in the Pathé style (i.e., a vertically cut disc designed to be played with a jewel point, like a sapphire. The Pathé style is a different style of vertical cut from Edison Diamond Discs and vertically cut discs designed to be played with a steel needle). Note that the above style of disc plays from the center out.

Likewise, the paper-labeled discs that succeeded the style above, but which retain the design element of a "banner" or "scroll" beginning at about 7 o'clock and wrapping around the circumference of the label to stop at around 5 o'clock (and showing a red rooster standing on a gold disc, usually) is also vertically cut, but plays from the outside to the center.

I am not a terribly familiar with the label styles of Pathé in France and its far-flung international operations. However, in France at least, the company produced vertically cut and laterally cut issues simultaneously from about 1920 to about 1932, at which point they ceased manufacturing vertically cut discs. I believe these are designated as follows on the labels:

Disque à Aiguille (translates as "needle disc" = laterally cut).
Disque à Safir (translates as "sapphire disc," e.g. to be played with a jewel point stylus = vertically cut in the Pathé style.)

I hope this helps… I wish I were an expert on Pathé's products in their home country and around the world, but I am not. Perhaps someone can chime in with more authority.

Best wishes, Mark

PS, Viva-Tonal beat me to it, but I will post anyway. Also, a correction: Pathé in the USA discontinued producing vertically cut discs in December, 1922, not "circa 1926." You will note that the Actuelle discs (lateral) and their sister Pathé discs (vertical) of 1920-1922 credit "Pathé Frères Phonograph Company" but the subsequent Pathé Actuelle discs (lateral) credit "Pathé Phonograph and Radio Corporation." So that is another way to tell: if your USA-origin disc says "Pathé Actuelle," (no matter how small the type used for the "Actuelle" part of the label name) it is laterally cut. If the disc is credited to the Pathé Phonograph and Radio Corporation, it is laterally cut.

Amazing. Thanks so much for all your help!

Here's a website about French Pathé and discographies for both the inside- and outside-start eras:
http://www.hervedavid.fr/francais/phono ... Saphir.htm

A very rough chronology of label styles used in France:

Here is the label used on the "cemented" discs of 1905-06.
http://www.hervedavid.fr/francais/phono ... /3763a.jpg

From 1906 to 1916 the standard bearer was the gold-on-black design with the selection, performer and composer running around the circumference.

Starting in 1916 the discs were outside-start and pantographed more consistently at 80 rpm. A paper label was also adopted, the general design of which can be seen in the first link in this post (above "édition du 05.10.1923" and "édition du 07.03.1924"). Label colours varied according to the price category and there were small design tweaks over the years.

In the mid- to late 1920s, the plainer design with Monsieur le Coq less prominent was used. It is the label pictured above "édition du 22.02.1929".

To the best of my knowledge, French Pathé did not start issuing lateral-cut discs until the very late 1920s; the French phonograph market, after all, had accepted the vertical-cut records from their debut (well, after the cemented discs were abandoned, anyway!). Indeed, other brands active in France felt compelled to place "disque à aiguille" on their labels or envelopes.

A lateral Pathé from 1929 or 30:
http://www.mgthomas.co.uk/Dancebands/La ... ench-2.jpg

And a vertical from the same time or up to 1932:
http://dismuke.org/howimages/pathesaphir.jpg

French Pathé was acquired by Columbia Graphophone in 1928 and thus was part of the EMI merger in 1931. Vertical-cut discs were discontinued in 1932, I believe, but the Pathé brand itself continued well beyond that (or perhaps is still going?).

-HA

Howard, thanks for your description of Pathé's French operations and the correction on when they began issuing laterally cut discs. I learned a lot.

Best wishes, Mark

Mr Grumpy wrote:Hi all,

I apologize if this has been answered somewhere else in the forum, I tried using the search function but couldn't find the specific answer I was looking for.

I'm wondering what's the easiest way to distinguish the lateral from the vertical cut Pathé records?
I'm not even sure if that's the proper terminology for two different types, maybe someone can set me straight on
this?

Thanks.

Here's some more thoughts on the subject...


1) Pathé`, Edison Diamond-Discs, and other vertically-cut discs have a different appearance to the playing surface than that of lateral-cut ( Victor, Columbia, etc) discs. I really cannot think of any abstract way to describe it, but if you can get your hands on any Edison Diamond Disc, and tilting the record surface around as you looks at it, and note the way light reflects / refracts off of the playing surface, then try the same thing with a clean Victor or similar record. You will notice a difference in record grooves. Lateral records have a consistent groove-depth all the way across the playing surface; vertical records have varying groove depth, depending on the sound input...

Lateral-cut records tend to reflect / refract light in a direction that is more or less at right-angles(perpendicular) to the groove.

Vertical-cut records tend to reflect / refract light in direction more or less parallel to the groove, tending to resemble light and dark "dots" or "blocks" of varying length along the track of the groove.

Once you "catch-on" to the general appearance of each type format, it becomes fairly easy to recognize them at sight.

2) Pathé` vertical-cut discs play from the center-out... by close examination of the record groove at the center of the disc (possibly with a loupe), you should be able to discern which way the grooves are "pitched". Looking at the disc as if you were placing it on the platter, if the grooves on the right-side of the spindle pitch/slant from lower-right to upper-left, it is a conventional "outside-in" disc. If the grooves pitch / slant from lower-left to upper right, then it is a "Center-out" disc.

You should be able to confirm this by "playing" the disc on a later "hi-fi" type turntable, with a light-weight pick-up, and note which way the sound-head tracks: towards the center, or towards the edge. The light-weight pick-up should not harm a vertical-cut disc.

Good luck !


De Soto Frank

De Soto Frank wrote: 2) Pathé` vertical-cut discs play from the center-out... by close examination of the record groove at the center of the disc (possibly with a loupe), you should be able to discern which way the grooves are "pitched"

American made Pathé vertical cut discs play outside in- few American records played from the inside out.