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Hi Folks,

It's a good thing I love the Edison products because they sure do test my devotion.

I've been having trouble with "scoring" on my DD machine--that is, apparent scarring of the record surface--for a couple months now. Larry Hollenberg pointed this out to me a couple months back when he showed me how to check a stylus by running it into the blank area between the grooves and the label, to see what it does to the surface there (not foolproof, but still something one can do). Scoring showed up. Since then, I have bought TWO new styli (from separate guys) and have viewed both under microscopes; in the latter case I also got to see/hear the stylus play on one of his machines--and it left no scoring in the run-off area.

(IMPORTANT POINT: when I say "new styli" I mean original ones in good condition; I stay away from the ones being made in England).

Well, both these styli are scoring records when attached to my reproducer at home.

I've tried to isolate the problem--obviously, starting with the stylus. It doesn't seem to be in the reproducer bottom weight as the latter gentleman let me take his reproducer home (the one that left NO SCORING when used on his machine); there I inserted his stylus into it (but using one of MY pins) and it began scoring records (odd, since the stylus and reproducer functioned well at his place).

Long story short(er): when I first removed my stylus a few months ago I had to remove (and in the process destroy) the original stylus pin. Since then, I've been making do with shirt pins--which seemed a perfectly fine solution as they were easy to insert; once in place one can use a pair of sharp pliers to clip off excess either side of the "shoulders" to which the stylus bar mounts. In fact, I thought that was an improvement in that the stylus seemed to flex easier (and, I supposed, permit freer transmission of the vibrations).

Now, though, I am wondering if the shirt pin is too loose and is causing enough wiggle to account for the scoring. Goodness, one would not think so, as the stylus bar still has to be wedged in between those shoulders pretty firmly--so there shouldn't be any lateral drifting.

Hope I've explained this well enough. Any thoughts?

THANKS!!!

Ralph

Ralph, I'm going to ask the obvious here but good to know anyway. With the reproducer lowered completely into playing position on the record surface is the limit pin positioned in the middle of the limit loop as it should be? If it is then does the record(s) surface(s) appear to be even throughout one complete revolution? Some Edison DD's drift up and down during play like an ocean wave (from poor pressing) pretty dramatically causing the limit pin to become very nearly touching the bottom edge of the reproducer top. I will also presume that the diaphragm to stylus link is original and therefore the position of the stylus bar is correct when in playing position? Best,

Doug

Hi Doug,
The stylus pin is definitely in the center of the limit loop. The diaphragm I'm using is one of Larry Hollenberg's present-day creations--but he is quite scrupulous about the correct length of chord from stylus hook up to into the diaphragm.

maybe your original stylus weren't bad after all? The ones that were in the reproducer before changing them out or it's a problem with the machine itself as far as tracking?
Dwight

FellowCollector wrote:Ralph, I'm going to ask the obvious here but good to know anyway. With the reproducer lowered completely into playing position on the record surface is the limit pin positioned in the middle of the limit loop as it should be? If it is then does the record(s) surface(s) appear to be even throughout one complete revolution? Some Edison DD's drift up and down during play like an ocean wave (from poor pressing) pretty dramatically causing the limit pin to become very nearly touching the bottom of the reproducer weight. I will also presume that the diaphragm to stylus link is original and therefore the position of the stylus bar is correct when in playing position? Best,

Doug

Doug, your observations about the limit pin are also the first thing that I thought of. I adjust the screw that raises the horn support column until the limit pin is centered for a majority of the records. Those records do vary in thickness a bit, and I have a few the became cupped over the years.

I'll toss in a few more things to check. I seem to recall seeing a few reproducers whose floating weight had an additional short pin (or post) embedded in the weight, located directly beneath the "head" of the stylus T-bar; it must have been intended for some kind of limiting function, but I don't know why. If any misadjustment allowed the T-bar to rest on that pin during play, it would certainly score a record.

Is the floating weight coupled to the reproducer adjusted loosely enough to permit free pivoting from side to side?

Is the diaphragm original? Are the gaskets soft? A too-stiff diaphragm or hard gaskets would affect the vertical tracking compliance and could possibly score the record.

I have used sewing needles as a T-bar pin replacements and never had any scoring.

If those and other suggestions don't resolve the problem, then a review of the stylus under a really good microscope would be in order, to check for damage. It is not inconceivable for an original "new" diamond to be damaged. I wonder if the Edison factory test-played every stylus that the dealers stocked as replacements? I rather doubt it. Diamonds are the hardest substance known, but they are also brittle and have a grain like wood which might permit bits to flake off. I have personally seen bits flake off a sapphire stylus. The jewellers exploit that characteristic to cleave off pieces to create those sparkling facets you see in a diamond ring.

Ralph,

I've been having similar problems as well. I was going to start a thread about it, but I think I'll just join yours if you don't mind.

My reproducer has an original diaphragm, new gaskets, a cleaned and oiled floating weight pivot, and a perfect diamond that was checked under a microscope. The limit pin rides perfectly in the center of the loop until it exits the final groove, then the floating weight shifts to the left (if you are standing in front of the machine) and the pin is in contact with the loop at that point. Before I changed the stylus, I was noticing some record wear, which seemed to stop after installing the new one. However, now I am noticing scoring on the "dead wax", which did not happen with the old one. This happens on most but not all discs I have tried. The only thing I can see that isn't as it should be is a slight side to side play on the new stylus bar. I put a small dab of grease on each side of the stylus pivot to reduce any possible lateral vibrations, but that didn't seem to have any effect on the scoring. Other than that, the reproducer sounds fantastic and I'm not noticing any wear on the grooves. Should I be concerned? (I am... )

I have found in my testing of many records over long hours that I can not trust any record which has a defect. I have gone though 7 new stylus and all failed. Some were bad at first others after a year or more play.. Steven Medved told me that running a stylus of an Edison over a crack, anything more than a very minor scratch, a depression in the surface which might be from a arm falling on the record and poking hole in the surface or a defect original surface of some sort, or a badly warped record which will cause the stylus to dig into the record from the weight being raised its maximum, will possible cause a good stylus to be damaged to the point it scratches the surface. I had a warped record which on one side was fine, the other the middle was raised so that toward the end the stylus cut the record. After playing that record a diamond that was doing fine started to show run off marking. However as the diamond is the only one I have to test with I kept playing it as the line was pretty faint. Over time I have noticed that the marking is nearly gone. I have read where sometimes a slightly damaged stylus could though play sort of polish it self though wearing in the groove. If a diamond is showing more than a very faint marking under good lightly I wouldn't continue to use it.

Larry

larryh wrote:I have read where sometimes a slightly damaged stylus could through play sort of polish it self through wearing in the groove.

I don't buy it. You would have to ruin a mountain of records to polish out a diamond that way. More likely a film of record residue built up on the diamond.

When I was a machinist years ago, I would periodically even up the surface of a carborundum grinding wheel using a diamond point. We used that diamond for years. My point [excuse the pun] is that diamonds are incredibly hard material and you won't reform the point by playing DD records (any time soon!) like you would with a soft steel needle on an abrasive 78 rpm record.

This forum rocks. Such an array of good sense and wide experience so readily available.

I thank everyone for their recommendations. Luckily the weekend is at hand and I can try out all suggestions. My plan as of now is to:
1) try out different substitute pins; a sewing needle might work better than a shirt pin
2) I will switch around all the diaphragms I have (I've got four; two in use and two in reserve)

I've just received my Nauck's winnings and most of those records are pristine in the run-off areas, allowing me areas to test.

I suppose it is "good" that some of you are also dealing with this issue. Misery loves company (yep, welcome aboard the thread, Brandon!) but it's also shows how extensive (hopefully not intractable) the problem is.

My goodness, this does show how the lateral machines with steel needles had their advantages. Sure, you had to switch out the needles all the time, but at least you then had a good needle all the time!!!

I figured that Maria Callas' statement about music's "perpetual anxiety and torture" would be appropriate for my antique phonograph hobby. Now I know for sure. Callas was a highly-responsible, serious-minded performer who gave her all to opera--so that she could honor and reproduce the composer's original intent as closely as possible. We in this hobby have an overlapping interest in "the best musical fidelity possible"--even if we are not performers...and that drives us just as NUTS.

Ralph

Ralph, do you have a way to do microphotography? I'd love to see a photo of the stylus, bar and pivot pin, to wrap my brain around this. I would assume that the clearance of the the pivot pin to stylus bar and saddles needs to be a precise slip fit to prevent any vertical wobble of the stylus.

Fran