The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hi folks,

This is a listing on ebay, but I didn't link my post to the auction so I could post it here in the "machines forum", as it is a great machine to show to others in the hopes of broadening my understanding of Graphophones.

The top works is obviously Graphophone-esque, but the motor certainly is not in some ways, especially the mainspring and winding mechanism. Is it a BV (Oxford)? I've never seen the motor works on a BV. Very primitive looking setup in comparison to the other Graphophones of the period. Hazelcorn doesn't get into much detail other than, "...a strange looking governor that centered the lead weights on four inch long flat steel springs." This motor design sort of resembles a "Q" to me, but still, it's quite different in many ways.

Note the missing winding "ratchet" mechanism in favor of a "friction spring" and the "plate and pillar" arrangement of the mainspring instead of a barrel to capture the spring.

Pictures for posterity:

I can confirm that this is a Columbia model BV marketed around 1908/1909
Regards,
Alistair.

clevelander wrote:I can confirm that this is a Columbia model BV marketed around 1908/1909
Regards,
Alistair.

Thank you, Alistair.

I can affirm as well, that it is a BV--"ish" machine--- the BV "Royal".... I have a nice example of this machine in my collection.
I say "ish" because every BV I've seen has had the Columbia Graphophone banner decal on the case-- My understanding is that when it was sold by Sears or other outlets, as an Oxford, the decal was omitted-- I suspect it was called something other than the "BV" in those cases--however, it was identical except for the decal. Has your case been stripped? Any evidence it had a banner decal at some point? They are nice little machines.

Brad Abell

outune wrote:I can affirm as well, that it is a BV--"ish" machine--- the BV "Royal".... I have a nice example of this machine in my collection.
I say "ish" because every BV I've seen has had the Columbia Graphophone banner decal on the case-- My understanding is that when it was sold by Sears or other outlets, as an Oxford, the decal was omitted-- I suspect it was called something other than the "BV" in those cases--however, it was identical except for the decal. Has your case been stripped? Any evidence it had a banner decal at some point? They are nice little machines.

Brad Abell

Thanks Brad for the input. It's a machine I noticed on eBAY and the motor construction is what caught my attention. For such a late production Graphophone, I was a little stunned at the simplicity of the spring motor and gear train. I can see why they could be produced as inexpensively as they were.

I am fascinated by the Graphophone motors in regards to how the design was so different than Edison motors. One can see the similarities that were carried onward from the Eagle in many of the other cylinder instrument motors, especially the spring barrel(s), winding ratchet mechanism and governor. This motor has none of that resemblance, instead it seems like a couple of steps backwards insofar as engineering is concerned.

Best,
Fran

I too, have this exact same machine.

outune wrote:I can affirm as well, that it is a BV--"ish" machine--- the BV "Royal".... I have a nice example of this machine in my collection.
I say "ish" because every BV I've seen has had the Columbia Graphophone banner decal on the case-- My understanding is that when it was sold by Sears or other outlets, as an Oxford, the decal was omitted-- I suspect it was called something other than the "BV" in those cases--however, it was identical except for the decal. Has your case been stripped? Any evidence it had a banner decal at some point? They are nice little machines.

Brad Abell

According to Hazelcorn, the BV is often found with no decal. The 'Oxford' also rarely has a decal; but one might be able to see whether there are any marks on the case from the back bracket….

Bill

Lucius1958 wrote:

outune wrote:I can affirm as well, that it is a BV--"ish" machine--- the BV "Royal".... I have a nice example of this machine in my collection.
I say "ish" because every BV I've seen has had the Columbia Graphophone banner decal on the case-- My understanding is that when it was sold by Sears or other outlets, as an Oxford, the decal was omitted-- I suspect it was called something other than the "BV" in those cases--however, it was identical except for the decal. Has your case been stripped? Any evidence it had a banner decal at some point? They are nice little machines.

Brad Abell

According to Hazelcorn, the BV is often found with no decal. The 'Oxford' also rarely has a decal; but one might be able to see whether there are any marks on the case from the back bracket….

Bill

Bill,

Excellent point, that narrows it down to the BV, as it has no holes for the back bracket.

Fran

I admittedly have limited knowledge-- and the older I get the more limited it seems to be But-- The rear bracket version would be the BVT, would it not?? I still wonder if a BV appearing without a decal would have to be an Oxford version-- sold through Sears and other retailers. I would have thunk that if it was sold by a Columbia agent, it would bear the Columbia decals.... At any rate-- Cool machine-- The governor set up is similar to the early Drip-Pan Gem, with those very long weight springs.

Brad Abell

outune wrote:I admittedly have limited knowledge-- and the older I get the more limited it seems to be But-- The rear bracket version would be the BVT, would it not?? I still wonder if a BV appearing without a decal would have to be an Oxford version-- sold through Sears and other retailers. I would have thunk that if it was sold by a Columbia agent, it would bear the Columbia decals.... At any rate-- Cool machine-- The governor set up is similar to the early Drip-Pan Gem, with those very long weight springs.

Brad Abell

Brad,

My understanding is that the Oxford was only a back mount horn instrument, as was the BVT, so this particular version, would have to be a BV because of no holes in the rear of the cabinet. In regards to the missing decal, one would have to assume that the cabinet must have been stripped at some point and that the transfer was never replaced?

Best,
Fran