The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I know this topic has been much discussed
here in the past. Just did a search and read
up on it.

There seems to be no real agreement as far
as what (if any) amount of runoff area marking
that is considered acceptable.

Here is my current situation with my newly
acquired C-250 DD machine:

Obtained a new "Expert" diamond mounted in
a genuine old Edison stylus bar. Obtained
a new gasket set.

Took the DD reproducer apart myself after
making a suitable spanner-key tool to
loosen the retaining ring.

Got all the new parts in, and have been playing lots of records. Also doing lots
of runoff tests to check the new diamond.

At first, I swear I saw absolutely no runoff
marking at all. None. It left the area
pristine and shiny.

Well, now, after about a week, I am noticing
the finest scoring in the runoff area.
One must look at it with the light at just the
correct angle to see it.

These fine, fine markings are so tiny
that they shine with a colored sheen such
as blue or red depending upon the angle of the
light. Much the same way that a compact disc's grooves will shine the colors of a
rainbow due to them being so fine that they
refract the light.

So it is now, with my new "Expert" DD stylus.

It plays records loud and clear, with no
apparent wear, other than the previously
mentioned tiny bit of greenish dust after
several plays, wiped off the stylus tip
with a finger.

So, how about this tiny amount of runoff
area marking? Should I stop and have this
stylus looked at by someone with a high powered microscope?

All opinions and ideas will be a great help
to me, because I am all new to the whole
DD situation. Thanks again!

Chuck

If I perceived a change in characteristics, then yes, I would be looking at that needle under a good scope for signs of premature wear or damage. You know what a perfect stylus point should look like. I can't imagine a real diamond going bad that fast, but who knows what you are dealing with -- something ain't right!

Yes, this is total BS, and I'm about ready
to try and come up with some other options
in addition to the "Expert" stylus.

By the way, does Ron Haring have an email
address?

I need to contact him about this, to find
out what he thinks, and then see if he has
any used Edison DD styli around that are in
decent shape. I know he had some NOS Edison
ones, but last I heard, they are all gone.

Again, I am searching for a NOS Edison DD
stylus in a bar. Thanks, Chuck

Since I posted this, I have received some much-needed extra spare DD parts.
Here is what has happened:

Received a whole, complete, working DD reproducer fitted with a Greg Bogantz
diaphragm. Sounds great and works great!!

Have some used original Edison DD styli in bars.

One of those looks perfect under the local jeweler's microscope.

Some of the other spare styli have noticeable worn spots on them, clearly
seen under the scope, but they do not mark the runoff area!!

I would like to hear everyone's opinion about an obviously worn
DD stylus which does not mark the runoff. What about that situation.

By the way, when playing a record with one of these, it looks to
me so far as if it scrapes up just a tiny bit more greenish black stuff than
a perfect stylus does.

The oddest part of all is: My "Expert" stylus looks perfect under the
microscope, but it marks the runoff a tiny, tiny bit.

Opinions?

Thanks, Chuck

Chuck,

Your discussing what has been an issue with many of use for quite some time. I have currently a Expert diamond that does exactly the same thing. When I got it as was the case with many of the ones I purchased it showed no scoring at all. But over time it began to leave that faint set of lines in the run off. Since I do a lot of testing I really had little choice but to use it and while it didn't noticeably appear to change the playing grooves, I know now that after getting the Bruce replacement that the sound was also negatively effected. I had some of those diamonds that left extreme lines from the moment they were set on the disc. Others became worse over time. I can't rule out with some of those things that over time I may have accidently played something that had a defect sufficient to chip the diamond. Again though there has been some question as to quality of the item that might lead to being prone to damage from small blows. None of this is scientific, just observations from mine an others experiences.

On the original diamonds which I also attempted to use it also was the case that they would not score the record if not damaged, but that the wear was enough over many years to effect the overall sound. So that is really not a great option either. Only one which has never been used might be considered a true candidate for clear sound.

Steven M has told me on several occasions that he prefers to see no obvious lines in the run off when playing a stylus. It would seem that very faint scoring might take quite some time to effect the playing grooves but I would rather have what I am testing now that shows no evidence of running over the record.

Larry

Chuck,

If I remember correctly, Expert has time and time again refused to acknowledge the fact that good originals left no lines. Along with that, I think they tried altering the shape of the stylus in order that the groove walls would help support it or some such. These things, along with quality control which must be spotty at best, result in styluses that can cause damage right from the start or very soon after. My Expert stylus did that same thing as yours, lasted about a week, but started making lines far more visible than the ones you describe.

I can tell you that I get some blackish residue on my finger tip after playing a side. I thought this was normal since I had replaced the stylus with a new "Expert stylus". I am suspecting that this is wearing the record grooves.

Victrolacollector wrote:I can tell you that I get some blackish residue on my finger tip after playing a side. I thought this was normal since I had replaced the stylus with a new "Expert stylus". I am suspecting that this is wearing the record grooves.

Play the record a few times and test for that black substance.. In testing the Bruce Diamonds I have occasionally run into that build up on a few records but find that other records don't produce anything on the stylus. When I then tried the same record I found it to run clean. So some of the records may have built up dirt in the grooves that take a play or so to get out.

Larry

I was incorrect in saying that some marking is unavoidable: what I meant is that such marking should be very very close to invisible, if not actually invisible. Looking at many Edison discs I've had for years, very few show any obvious lines in the run-off areas.

Further, you shouldn't be seeing any "black dust" when playing back a properly cleaned diamond disc. I'd certainly be sure I'm playing a disc that's been cleaned first before jumping to conclusions about dust, dirt, gime, marks, etching etc. If you remove this factor completely by properly cleaning the record and having a reproducer that's properly adjusted / lubed, you'll be way ahead of things in determining stylus condition. So, if you're playing a disc that meets all of the above and still getting dust / grime on your stylus, there's a problem.

Sean