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Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:03 pm
by bart1927
Hello everybody. I'm having problems determinating the correct playback speed for these two records. I don't have perfect pitch, but I play a little piano, and when I play along with the record it's easy to determine if a record is off key or not.
The problem of course is that when I find a record is off key, I still don't now what the correct key is. If for instance a record sounds wrong at 78 rpm and right at 76 rpm, it also sounds right at 80.5 rpm (one semitone higher).
The records in this case are Imperial 1909 (Ice Cream by Sam Lanin and His Orchestra) and Banner 6124-A (Is She My Girl Friend by the Campus Boys/Harry Reser with a vocal by Tom Stacks.)
This is Ice Cream at:
78.26 rpm
https://app.box.com/s/k1sax47glb309r2g7yhy
76 rpm
https://app.box.com/s/9d41r7sq3uzihecoqrur
80.5 rpm
https://app.box.com/s/41rfmti2lwjep695osel
This is Is She My Girl Friend at:
78.26 rpm
https://app.box.com/s/m2evcph3l6lvcj5ep8fu
75.5 rpm
https://app.box.com/s/12o8jqb4l170bu2rwrcu
80 rpm
https://app.box.com/s/g4vq3jg347w6ms5nl1mr
What do you guys (and gals) think?
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:16 pm
by De Soto Frank
If you are trying to match-up key-centers of pieces with the piano, at least for popular music, go with the option that places the key with the fewest number of flats or sharps.
Classical selections are a different story... Rachmaninoff didn't mind setting his famous "prelude" in C#-minor ( four sharps ); this would not have been a likely key-signature for jazz or popular songs...
If you start trying to match the key-center of a recording to a "transposing instrument", such as a trumpet, clarinet, or saxophone, things get complicated.
Stick with a "concert-pitch instrument", such as the piano.
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:13 am
by bart1927
De Soto Frank wrote:If you are trying to match-up key-centers of pieces with the piano, at least for popular music, go with the option that places the key with the fewest number of flats or sharps.
Classical selections are a different story... Rachmaninoff didn't mind setting his famous "prelude" in C#-minor ( four sharps ); this would not have been a likely key-signature for jazz or popular songs...
If you start trying to match the key-center of a recording to a "transposing instrument", such as a trumpet, clarinet, or saxophone, things get complicated.
Stick with a "concert-pitch instrument", such as the piano.
So how exactly would I apply this in my situation?
If, for instance, I play "Is she my gf" at 75.5 rpm I got a lot of flats, at least 4. If I play it at 80 rpm, I only have one flat.
So which one is the most likely? It's not piano music, and dance orchestra's tend to have a lot of what you call "transposing instruments".
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:56 am
by Curt A
This is a question that most of us have wondered about for years... but, as they say on "American Pickers" - I'll meet you in the middle at 78...
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:49 pm
by Curt A
Bart, with all due respect - I listened to all of your recordings, and in my humble opinion, they all sound the same... one is just as good as another. Are you really able to say that one of these is "correct" and the others are not? Maybe you have very sensitive hearing, but I think you are asking a question that cannot be answered by a normal person or collector.
Play them at whichever speed makes you the happiest... I am certain that most people cannot differentiate the sound at 78.26 / 75.5 or 80rpm. I don't mean to be insulting, but I almost think that you are joking with us to say that you can hear any "noticeable difference" at less than 2rpm (80-78.26 = 1.74rpm)...
Maybe the problem is that you are playing them at 78.26 instead of 78.00rpm...
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:28 pm
by bart1927
Curt A wrote:Bart, with all due respect - I listened to all of your recordings, and in my humble opinion, they all sound the same... one is just as good as another. Are you really able to say that one of these is "correct" and the others are not? Maybe you have very sensitive hearing, but I think you are asking a question that cannot be answered by a normal person or collector.
Play them at whichever speed makes you the happiest... I am certain that most people cannot differentiate the sound at 78.26 / 75.5 or 80rpm. I don't mean to be insulting, but I almost think that you are joking with us to say that you can hear any "noticeable difference" at less than 2rpm (80-78.26 = 1.74rpm)...
Maybe the problem is that you are playing them at 78.26 instead of 78.00rpm...
I'm not offended, but I think you underestimate normal persons and collectors. In fact, several audio engineers who reissue 78's for cd labels (Rivermont, Timeless REcords, Oracle, etc) take the time to adjust the speed of a record so that it's in the correct key. In fact, the playback speed of Louis Armstrong's "Cornet Chop Suey" has been the subject of a lot of debate. (See also
http://www.normanfield.com/cornetchopsuey.htm)
I think most people are able to hear the difference between 76 or 80 rpm, since the difference is a complete semitone. I assume most people hear the difference between a c and a cis?
The difference between 78 and 78.26 rpm is because my turntable was calibrated with a stroboscope. If you use a strobe for 78 rpm in the USA (60 Hz mains frequency) you are actualy setting your turntable to 78.26 rpm. When you live in Europe and use a 50 Hz strobe it´s actually 77.92.
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:39 pm
by Henry
deleted: see next post.
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:44 pm
by Henry
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:14 pm
by bart1927
Hi Henry,
Thanks for your input. With regards to the
Ice Cream you could be right, but is there any reason you choose the 80.5 rpm version over the 76? Does it land in an unlikely key at 76, or is it just that it sounds a little too slow?
With regards to
Is she my gf I checked the 78.26 rpm file, but I don't think it plays exactly in F-major, in fact it plays in a non-existing key. That's what made me thing the speed was off in the first place. The 80 rpm file, however, plays in F-major.
Re: Imperial 1909 and Banner 6124. Correct speed?
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:31 pm
by Wolfe
Girl Friend sounds good at 78.26
Ice Cream doesn't sound quite right at any of the speeds posted. I'd aim for about 79 on that one.
There's key and then there's tempo, both need to sound integral.