The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hope Beaumonde doesn't mind, this one isn't on his CD.



1921

Take it away boys

In my modest, but relatively complete jazz collection I do not have a single record by Isham Jones, and now thanks to Wolfe I know why. Yes, I know 1921 is early, but still.

iphonefreak wrote:In my modest, but relatively complete jazz collection I do not have a single record by Isham Jones, and now thanks to Wolfe I know why. Yes, I know 1921 is early, but still.

To be fair, how many dance bands were making jazz records in 1921? Have you heard "Some Little Bird" by the Coon-Sanders Nighthawks? That was also from 1921.

Indeed, in a mid-20s interview, Isham Jones specifically stated that he was not a jazz musician, but a dance band leader (and composer, of course). Paul Whiteman was never that modest.

However, to perhaps allow you to revise your opinion, here is a side he recorded in 1923 which has more real jazz in it than Whiteman, for one, ever did by that time.

Cotton Pickers' Ball (Br 2548-B; mtx 11605; NY, 10/11/23)
http://www.box.net/shared/j9slo9pbha

In my opinion there is a great difference between Isham Jones' band before and after the arrival of Louis Panico on cornet. He turned the orchestra into a jazz band, and many of their 1923-25 records are red hot!

Fredrik

I agree that Cotton Pickers' Ball sounds fine, also thanks to the blues section. But I still prefer the bands of Freddie Keppard, Kid Ory, the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, and only two years later the King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band - not to mention the work by Jelly Roll Morton.

iphonefreak wrote:I agree that Cotton Pickers' Ball sounds fine, also thanks to the blues section. But I still prefer the bands of Freddie Keppard, Kid Ory, the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, and only two years later the King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band - not to mention the work by Jelly Roll Morton.

I think we've had this discussion before on the other Board! What is jazz? That's the perennial topic. It depends what value an individual listener places on music with jazz influences or occasional improvised solos vs. "authentic" jazz. I don't think we'll ever agree. There was so much mixing of styles and influences in the '20s.

By the way, I love pure jazz as well, this is just a different animal. My entire interest in this older music began in college when I borrowed a Smithsonian LP set of the Louis and Earl Hot Five recordings. That's not counting the many previous years of ragtime that I played and listened to as a kid...

And, Wolfe, I'm sorry I sort of hijacked your thread with this sideways discussion and my posting of the other Isham Jones side...

beaumonde wrote:

iphonefreak wrote:I agree that Cotton Pickers' Ball sounds fine, also thanks to the blues section. But I still prefer the bands of Freddie Keppard, Kid Ory, the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, and only two years later the King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band - not to mention the work by Jelly Roll Morton.

I think we've had this discussion before on the other Board! What is jazz? That's the perennial topic. It depends what value an individual listener places on music with jazz influences or occasional improvised solos vs. "authentic" jazz. I don't think we'll ever agree. There was so much mixing of styles and influences in the '20s.

By the way, I love pure jazz as well, this is just a different animal. My entire interest in this older music began in college when I borrowed a Smithsonian LP set of the Louis and Earl Hot Five recordings. That's not counting the many previous years of ragtime that I played and listened to as a kid...

And, Wolfe, I'm sorry I sort of hijacked your thread with this sideways discussion and my posting of the other Isham Jones side...

No sorry necessary.

It never occured to me that someone would approach Isham Jones expecting hard Jazz, anymore than, say, Abe Lyman. I've always considered the Jones aggregation primarily a dance band.

I'm one who enjoys the popular dance music of the late teens and early twenties.

I think it's remarkable how 'Ma!' has managed to survive and be a hit in so many recordings across so many decades. I don't know who did it in the 1930s or 1940s, but I found out Monty Sunshine and Annette Funicello recorded versions of it in the 1950s, and back in 1974 I got the record of the late Lena Zavaroni's version (which blew me away as a 10 year old myself, as she was when she recorded it).

Yes, I agree I may be wrong in expecting "jazz", whatever that is, from Isham Jones. As I wrote, this is the first time I hear him, however he is often quoted in jazz history books. So I thank for the opportunity, but I go back listening to those I like! - no offense intended.

Wolfe,

MA! He's makin' eyes at me! A fun one Thank you. My copy is so worn out you can hear the song on the other side!

Adam, Thank you as well-what a remarkably different sound in just two years. Popular music was changing fast wasn't it.

iphonefreak, we're talking two very different beasts here. Even the at its hottest I wouldn't compare Jones' unit to Oliver's or Charlie Johnson's for example. I'm not a big fan of Keppard myself, but King Oliver is a god! I think one reason Jones is mentioned in Jazz discussions is a number of his compositions became Jazz standards. It Had to Be You tops the list I think.

Regards,
John