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I saw a Victor talking machine with a speartip horn with an unusual identification tag with the Type and Number was displayed. This machine was at a major auction and wanted to learn if this machine is fake or not.

Now I do not have a picture of this the tag, but it looked similar to the attached picture. It did not include Nipper and it had the word Type below the words Victor Talking machine.

Is this machine real?

Welcome to the forum. In order to answer your question, much more information would be needed. Pitcrues of the machine and the tag are needed. If the tag you saw was on a outside horm machine with a spear tip horn, and if it had the word Victrola on it, then it is not genuine. The word Victrola was only used on the internal horn machines. What designation came after the word "TYPE"?

Thank you for the welcome.

I found a better picture.

Yes, it's an authentic Victor Monarch better known as a Victor M. The oak spearpoint horn would have been an upgrade a few years later. Actually the machine looks like an early example that would have been a front mount version. When the rear mount variety was introduced, owners could update their machines to the more modern set-up. Jerry

Jerry B. wrote:Yes, it's an authentic Victor Monarch better known as a Victor M. The oak spearpoint horn would have been an upgrade a few years later. Jerry

Jerry is correct. The machine is indeed an "M" which stands for Monarch. However, the horn is not a #31 oak "spear point" horn. It is in fact the less common small smooth oak #30 horn offered by Victor for $10 extra (at a much later date). The spear point was $15 extra.

Wayne is correct. The smaller smooth horn was introduced very late in the horn era. I've always speculated that they were constructed from bits from all the veneer scraps left over from the manufacture of the increasingly popular Victrolas. I have no real proof that this is true but if you see a refinished small oak horn, the pieces of veneer fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Jerry

that data plate looks like one from an older front mount machine as mentioned above, and it looks like it replaced a later data plate (see the outline?).

Retrograde wrote:that data plate looks like one from an older front mount machine as mentioned above, and it looks like it replaced a later data plate (see the outline?).

Sharp eyes...

Wow. Sharp eyes. Thanks for the advice.

If that plate is replaced, then I can assume other pieces of the machine probably have been replaced? Based on the comments, how much would a machine like this cost?

It's difficult to tell from the pictures but it's possible the machine has been oversprayed with a shiny lacquer. Also the data plate has been replaced as has the turntable felt. The finish of the horn does not match that of the machine very well. I'd exercise caution with this one and take the above points into consideration or get more information before settling on a price. It could be an amalgamation of parts. More good quality pics could also prove most of the above observations are not correct and it's fine.