Omitted Titles on Edison

[Victrolacollector]

Why was it that Edison tended to issue some great titles on Blue Amberol such as Come Josephine in my Flying Machine", but you do not find it on disc?

You find a Edison DD of "Chicago" or "Fire!-An Alarming Novelty" and you do not find it on cylinder?

[Valecnik]

"Come Josephine" was already recorded on wax amberol in 1910 or so and then re-released on BA. It was released on other labels too so might have been a bit tired by the time the DD came around.

Once the DD was introduced and the dubbing started, less and less of the repertoire was transferred over as time went on. I suppose it has something to do with the declining sales of cylinders generally but must have been pretty disappointing to the fellow who'd just purchased a new Amberola 1 a few years before.

[WDC]

Edison wasn't actually very fond of his Blue Amberols, the cylinder format in general was very much preferred but the celluloid always reminded him of the patent issues he had with Lambert and that using this material was not his original idea.

Edison was also very much involved with anything else (portland cement, iron ore, etc.) but taking care of the phonograph department. Only during his later days he would pay more attention to hit (which made things worse, of course).

However, there have been some titles or takes released as dubbed cylinders only. According to personal notes, at least some of these were considered to be only good enough for cylinder but not for disc. Again, talking about dubbed (post-1914) cylinders only.

Btw. 'Fire!' was released on BA.

[Valecnik]

This is one of the dubbed Blue Amberols never released on disc for whatever reason.

[youtubehd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVH7BzzjOHU[/youtubehd]

[tinovanderzwan]

[quote="WDC"]Edison wasn't actually very fond of his Blue Amberols, the cylinder format in general was very much preferred but the celluloid always reminded him of the patent issues he had with Lambert and that using this material was not his original idea.

well a lot of items on the edison patent list where not his original idea including the big one.. the light bulb
edison was not only an inventor of original idea's he was a great improver of existing idea's and he wouldn't stop until it was perfect he could work years on and of on a idea
many of the edison patents where on idea's that eighter din't work or worked poorly f.i. the electric light via filament existed since the 1820's but it simply din't work

the lambert cylinders dough loud where noisy because of the graphite electrolysis of the masters the gold plating of the master cyl by edison made his cyl basically noise free

tino

[edisonphonoworks]

It is my understanding that most of the earlier Edison cylinders were gold moulded masters, however in later years, the graphite method was used. I know it was used for making Ediphone practice cylinders, these were also electrically dubbed from lacquer discs. I personally, like the surface of a good metallic soap record, better than celluloid, or resin, however that does not hold up to a diamond, and breaks easily, but I think when new, the surface is much quieter. I have 2 of my early 2001-02 cylinders, and for some odd reason, they are quieter now than when they were new.

[tinovanderzwan]

It is my understanding that most of the earlier Edison cylinders were gold moulded masters, however in later years, the graphite method was used. I know it was used for making Ediphone practice cylinders, these were also electrically dubbed from lacquer discs. I personally, like the surface of a good metallic soap record, better than celluloid, or resin, however that does not hold up to a diamond, and breaks easily, but I think when new, the surface is much quieter. I have 2 of my early 2001-02 cylinders, and for some odd reason, they are quieter now than when they were new.

when edison started in 1912 with the ba cyl the method was still gold moulded after 1914 all the cyl where dubbed from discs so there was a quality loss to begin with also the graphite method had been refined greatly the powder was much finer than in the time of the lamberts

as to your 2001-02 cylinders in 10+ years everything that could evaporate from your cylinders has done so new blanks are softer than 10+ years old blanks or recorded cyl this simply means less drag witch translates in less noise

tino

[Lenoirstreetguy]

Actually Edison did come up with the idea of using celluloid as early as 1888 when he filed a caveat for a method of using celluloid as the medium. By the time the patent was filed it was a decade later and both Loriet in France and Lambert in the US had got into the act. Lambert's patent was applied for in August 1899 and granted in December 1900. Edison had had a patent of file since March 1899. It was granted in 1902. Edison then sued Lambert. The court case dragged on and went through one appeal when the judge made the very odd decision that the experimental work of the Edison lab technicians during the nine years before the patent application constituted "prior use" and thereby negated the patent. That the records were never sold commercially and were part of the necessary steps in the development of a commercial product didn't seem to matter. The National Phonograph Company's legal department and T A Edison himself were tad bitter about this. They licked their wounds and proceeded to use the moulded wax which was fine for two minute recordings, but which became inadequate for the fine grooved Amberols. In retrospect the Edison group should have sucked it up and bought the Lambert patent in 1908,..that is to say at the time the 4 minute cylinders were introduced.... but I think that court decision had really stung. I think too they thought they could formulate a wax that would be durable enough for the Amberols....I know they continued to fiddle with the formula for the entire wax Amberol period and at one point experimented with a shellac surface of all things. The result was fruitless and the fragility of the Ameberols badly eroded their cylinder business before they bowed to the inevitable.
Jim

[Victrolacollector]

Edison wasn't actually very fond of his Blue Amberols, the cylinder format in general was very much preferred but the celluloid always reminded him of the patent issues he had with Lambert and that using this material was not his original idea.

Edison was also very much involved with anything else (portland cement, iron ore, etc.) but taking care of the phonograph department. Only during his later days he would pay more attention to hit (which made things worse, of course).

However, there have been some titles or takes released as dubbed cylinders only. According to personal notes, at least some of these were considered to be only good enough for cylinder but not for disc. Again, talking about dubbed (post-1914) cylinders only.

Btw. 'Fire!' was released on BA.

Very Nice! I have never seen one of these issues of Fire! on Blue Amberol, was this a rare record?
Also, do you have any plans to release that record on Blue Amberol?

Thanks for sharing the picture.

All the best,

Jerry

[Lucius1958]

Actually Edison did come up with the idea of using celluloid as early as 1888 when he filed a caveat for a method of using celluloid as the medium. By the time the patent was filed it was a decade later and both Loriet in France and Lambert in the US had got into the act. Lambert's patent was applied for in August 1899 and granted in December 1900. Edison had had a patent of file since March 1899. It was granted in 1902. Edison then sued Lambert. The court case dragged on and went through one appeal when the judge made the very odd decision that the experimental work of the Edison lab technicians during the nine years before the patent application constituted "prior use" and thereby negated the patent. That the records were never sold commercially and were part of the necessary steps in the development of a commercial product didn't seem to matter. The Nartional Phonograph Company's legal department and T A Edison himself were tad bitter about this. They licked their wounds and proceeded to use the moulded wax which was fine for two minute recordings, but which became inadequate for the fine grooved Amberols. In retrospect the Edison group should have sucked it up and bought the Lambert patent in 1908,..that is to say at the time the 4 minute cylinders were introduced.... but I think that court decision had really stung. I think too they thought they could formulate a wax that would be durable enough for the Amberols....I know they continued to fiddle with the formula for the entire wax Amberol period and at one point experimented with a shellac surface of all things. The result was fruitless and the fragility of the Ameberols badly eroded their cylinder business before they bowed to the inevitable.
Jim

I wonder whether they ever considered using Condensite for cylinders? After all, the material was developed before the BAs were put into production.

Perhaps there might be some test pressings still lurking among the Edison archives....

Bill