The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

because I'm so frustrated with its flutter during playback.

First, I think most everyone agrees with me that finding a Columbia cylinder Graphophone that does not have an annoying flutter during playback is pretty rare.

I recently purchased a completely original Columbia BF Peerless in decent condition. I already had a nice original 2 minute BF Peerless, but the primary reason I purchased this one is because it is a late model BF Peerless with the desirable 2/4 minute gearing installed. The 2/4 minute gearing works great and I rebuilt the 4 minute Columbia reproducer so that it sounds pretty nice.

But, of course, exactly like my 2 minute BF, this one has the notorious "Columbia Cylinder Graphophone Flutter" that is so common and incredibly annoying to figure out. So, I set a course for myself to get rid of the flutter.

I had purchased a set of 4 new Columbia governor weights from Ron Sitko a while back so I decided to take the entire governor apart and install the new weights while retaining the original (and in good condition) governor springs. I cleaned the friction disc (which appears to be running true) and governor bearings and governor shaft and reinstalled everything meticulously.

I replaced the old leather belt with new Columbia width belting and bypassed the idler pulley as I frequently do with no issues.

I adjusted the governor bearings to make the governor run as quietly as I could and so everything is in perfect alignment.

I cranked up the 4-spring motor and made sure all appeared to be running nicely.

I put a cylinder on the mandrel and lowered the reproducer with hopeful expectations that all of my hours of labor would be fruitful...

And the dang thing still has the same annoying flutter as it did before. I'm so incredibly frustrated with these Columbia cylinder Graphophones and their flutter issues...

With Edison cylinder phonographs I can almost always figure out the source of the flutter and remove it - but I have yet to figure out how to remove flutter from a Columbia!

I thought for sure that a new belt with correct tension, new governor weights, bearings adjusted and everything running as smoothly as you could expect for a Columbia would help. But...no.

I did notice that the governor weights do not rotate perfectly true as Edison governor weights do but who knows if that is the cause.

Anyway, I'm not sure if anyone here has an idea as to why I'm still getting a lot of flutter on this BF but please share your thoughts. I realize this topic has likely been brought up before but I don't recall anyone having a solution after doing the work I have done so far.

I've not tried installing new governor springs but I can't imagine that would make much if any of a difference in the flutter since the originals I have are pretty nice looking and feeling.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

Doug

Doug, If you are going to throw your BF out the window, let me know. I'll fly out and sit under your window to catch it!! Seriously though, Here are the problems that I see: When you rebuild the governor, use all new parts, springs, weights, etc. I think the original springs are tired and fatigued. After you rebuild the governor, make sure the brass flange slides on the shaft. Make sure you flex the springs slightly when you push on the flange. Then check the bearings. Sometimes they are out of round. That can cause flutter. I'm sure that you know how to replace a belt. Make sure the joint isn't bumpy. Make sure the belt is incorporated with the idler wheel. This is very important so the proper tension is on the belt. Also, make sure the idler arm and wheel is lubricated and is smooth. Let us know how this works.
Harvey Kravitz

I don't know if this is relevant to the BF, or not, but when I rebuilt my late AO, I noticed that the gears in the upper works gear train needed to be oriented within the housing just right. I experimented with taking each one out, flipping them over and checking to see if it made any difference. It was tedious, and involved taking the darn upper works apart several times before I was satisfied that I had improved the performance as much as I could...which was not a lot.

Also, (again, on my late AO) the small drive gear on the mandrel shaft has two thrust washers, and if they're arranged incorrectly, I found that the small gear could contact the upper works gear housing cover.

Are the BFs of similar design?

Fran

Thanks Harvey and Fran for your gracious replies of assistance.

I have attached a few pictures of what I have done. Please note the one picture that shows one governor spring is straight while the others are slightly bent while in rest position. Could this be a problem?

This flutter really confounds me. If we can figure this out I will be so pleased and will share it with everyone and anyone since this is such a notorious issue with Columbia cylinder graphophones.

If anyone can see anything wrong here in my pictures please let me know.

The upper works rotate very, very freely (actually silently) so I'm pretty confident the issue is in the governor somehow as the motor gears run smoothly - but who knows...

Harvey, the small brass gear attached to a fixed brass collar seen on the governor I have tightened good and tight to the governor shaft. If I didn't tighten this gear/collar the entire governor weight assembly spins around freely on the shaft and will not correctly accept spring power from the large mating gear.

The small brass gear on the governor shaft can move side to side and then be tightened down and I'm wondering if I should fiddle around with moving that gear laterally to find a sweet spot that still meshes with the larger gear fine.

Even though the governor weights are nice and tight on the springs and shaft they wobble just a bit as they begin to rotate so I know that may also be an issue as they eventually cause the friction disc to also wobble ever so slightly on fast rotation.

Thanks again for any ideas!

Doug

My modest little BK and BQ play almost as steadily as the Amberola V, probably because they weren't used very much when new. (I base that on the fact that both came with many like-new records.) I'd concentrate on governor bearings, which are to blame also on many well-used Gems.

I don't like the looks of the governor springs at rest in your 3rd and 4th pictures. The bottom one looks bowed; the top one does not. I too would advise replacing all four springs with new ones.
IMO the belt tensioner serves a useful purpose in keeping a flexible but just firm-enough tension on the belt. It should serve to isolate some governor vibration, shouldn't it?
I hope you find the cure..!
Bob

I agree about the governor springs not all being alike; this could throw the governor out of balance enough to cause "loping" or "flutter"...

I cannot offer any fresh suggestions, other than be methodical, and continue to have patience.


I have several Edison "Home" machines that work worse after I serviced them ("bogging" part-way through cylinders, reduced playing time... ), and have resisted all attempts to get things right.

I decided to take a break from them for a bit, and then have another go when I don't feel so angst-ridden towards them...

barnettrp21122 wrote:I don't like the looks of the governor springs at rest in your 3rd and 4th pictures. The bottom one looks bowed; the top one does not. I too would advise replacing all four springs with new ones.

De Soto Frank wrote:I agree about the governor springs not all being alike; this could throw the governor out of balance enough to cause "loping" or "flutter"...

Thanks for your replies. I will now search for 4 governor springs in my 'boneyard' of parts machines to try to find 4 that are all the exact same length and with the center hole drilled perfectly on center.

It makes perfect sense as to why the governor wobbles slightly when the weights begin their rotation. The friction disc then begins to wobble ever so slightly as a result and that is likely the cause of the flutter in this instance.

The problem now will be to find 4 absolutely perfect matching governor springs. In the past I have purchased governor springs from Ron Sitko. It seems as though I recall him telling me that he cuts and drills them by hand from spring steel stock but I may be wrong there. In any case, the governor springs I need would have to be about perfect.

I suspect (as Bob and Frank implied) that at least one of my original governor springs seen in the pictures is slightly short and I'd also be willing to bet that at least one of the center holes for attaching the weight is slightly off center which would surely lead to an imbalance for that weight during fast rotation.

All of the cylinder phonographs in my collection that play beautifully with zero flutter have perfectly true running governor weights so that will be my quest. Of course, I will also need to assure that the governor weights themselves are all the same weight!

I'll keep everyone posted if I'm successful in obtaining a near perfect rotating governor. That might just do the trick I think.

Doug

In the Edison documents I've read, they call this behavior "drunken Governor", for obvious reasons.

Fran

A friend had a Triumph whose governor would act up inconsistently. I went through that darned motor four times, each time going successively deeper in an attempt to root out the problem. The third time through, I removed all three mainsprings, cleaned them and re-greased them! But a week later, the Triumph was acting up again.

I don't know what finally made me take the governor apart... It looked fine. But when I did, I learned that the holes in this Triumph's governor springs were round on one end and oblong on the other...and one of the governor springs had been installed BACKWARDS. That did it. The Triumph has been running fine for four years now. I wish I had taken apart that governor the first time!

George P.

P.S.: Although Eagles and Qs are not known for their smooth playback, I've never had a flutter problem with the larger Columbias (I've had a BF since 1974 with nary a problem). Maybe I've just been lucky. One thing is for sure: if a novice works on a governor before thoroughly educating himself, there's a good chance the machine won't play well! (I'd like to catch the guy who messed with my friend's Triumph!)