The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hello. This is my first foray into the world of forums etcetera. As a senior citizen, I am often refered to as a neo-Ludite. However, I purchased a 1914 Columbia Grafonola at a yard sale and need help. So, here I am. The machine played fine at the previous owner's home. However, after a cosmetic cleaning at my house, the turntable slows to a stop when the tone arm is applied. I have oiled where the Columbia manual says to oil with a very light oil and without changing anything on the motor. I wound the spring well but not to excess. I used a new needle and don't know what to do next without causing damage to the machine. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Many times an antique machine will have difficulty playing a more modern 78 record. For example a 1915 machine will struggle playing a 1940's 78 record. The recording material is softer so there is more resistance under the needle. Give it a good winding, use a new needle, and play a period correct record and report back. Jerry Blais

The main springs might also need to be cleaned and new lube put in. After all, you might still have 100 year old grease in there. I just had a 1915 Pathé motor done. The grease in those springs not only looks like black sludge, it smelled real bad! I've noticed that some of my hand crank machines slow down when I try to play one of those really old thick Columbia records.

Hello Bernie! It is not clear which model of gramophone you purchased, and most important which type of motor it has.

It is quite normal that portables and smaller machines may not be able to play *all* records. In every collection there are at least some records with an odd combination of wear and/or layer of dirt and/or corrosion that exert a more-than-expected friction on the needle. Wether a well-lubricated gramophone will be able to play these records or not depends on the specific machine. I have some units that can play almost everything, and others which regularly fail with some specific records (although they play very well all others). Did you try playing different records? By "different" I mean records of different age and in different wear/dirt conditions.

Note that if your gramophone is a "single-springer", you should wind the spring fully or almost fully to play a record entirely. Otherwise very few gramophones will go through a record without slowing down.

Conversely, at least in my experience, two- or three-springs gramophones play all records with no problems, in whatever condition they may be. If yours is a two-springer or more, since lubricating it had no effect, it may need a deeper rehaul.

It's true that different records may take more energy to play than others, but strong springs should play them all. However, springs tend to become weaker over the many decades of their life. The main symptom of weak springs is they lack the energy to play a record, even when freshly cleaned and greased. They have enough energy to spin the turntable, but just barely. Add the weight of the reproducer and they don't have enough energy to keep the turntable going. Sometimes, weak springs will have enough energy to play one or maybe two sides before failing, then they slow down, even though the turntable will keep spinning at speed for some time without the weight of the reproducer. A very weak spring will not even have the energy to play a record even with a full winding. Every time I replace the old springs with new springs in machines with this problem, they work fine afterward.

Might try some new springs.

Good luck!

Cliff

This is a pretty common thing on smaller machines from my experience. I am using two portable phonographs at the moment to play non edison selections.. I find the Brunswick has the better sound but the spring has to be wound absolutely as far as one dare to get it to play though many 12" records.. If I use a louder tone stylus or medium it usually will play unless the record might be worn badly. However if I use a soft tone stylus (and the machine is very loud without it), it can stop the record nearly as soon as I put the arm on the record. The effect as noted it worst on Columbia early records which over the years I have found to be difficult to maintain the proper speed on due to the drag of the grooves.

I pretty much gave up buying smaller table top machines because so many of the earlier versions simply can't manage to still play a record though without winding half way into the selection. The larger machines have the stronger motors, but it won't always mean they can play a record either. I have had some come to a complete stop on my large brunswick if the record is worn or some of those touchy surface columbia ones.


Larry

I want to thank all of you for your input. It has been a lot to consider. The good news is the machine is working. A lot of lightweight oil and a little spot cleaning did the trick. I ordered “The Compleat Talking Machine; A Collector’s Guide . . .”, so I guess I’m here to stay. The motor needs a general cleaning and new oil or grease. I used a very lightweight oil that I use in the valves of my French Horn. It is non gumming etcetera, but may not be heavy enough. I will see what Mr. Reiss has to say or listen to whatever input all of you might have. I am wondering if I can clean everything with brake cleaner as it cuts grease and oil like crazy without leaving a residue. I do not intend to dismantle anything, just clean. I do have some concern about the governor, however. The balls are coated with a white oxidation that easily flakes off. I will try to clean without disturbing them. I suspect I will need to replace the governor at some point. Do all of you have a preferred place for parts and /or repair and rebuilds? Well that’s about it. Again, thank you very much. I think I will go listen to a little “Old School” jazz the “Old Way”.

Yes, I have a guy who can rebuild everything from a 1942 RCA Magic Brain record changer to a 1899 Edison Home. One day turn around. He works while I wait. I have no idea where you are located, but I'm in Southern California. Marc.

You might want to watch this. It will give you a good idea of the possible problems and solutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSKdUUUXiBY

Bernie wrote:I will see what Mr. Reiss has to say

Bernie, more or less we all own that book, and it's interesting and precious, but it also contains one of the craziest sentences you will ever read about gramophones: that is not to lubricate them and keep their gears dry!!! Not only this is totally crazy, but also blatantly contradicts all user's instructions that gramophones makes gave to their customers, that is to oil and grease them regularly, of course!

I still have to understand how it is possible that a reputable and knowledgeable collector like Mr. Reiss could write such an unbelievable thing.

Concerning the governor masses, the white layer you see is simply lead oxyde. If your gramophone plays well and steadily, leave them as they are.

The regulator will last your lifetime and the next if you oil it regularly! No need to look for a replacement now, if it works fine.

I agree the oil you used may be a bit too fluid. It won't do any damage, but will require to be added too frequently. You can use automotive oil, which is cheap and works perfectly. You probably have it at home already. (My top choice is model trains oil, but obviously it's not as easy to find).

Gasoline is the best de-greaser: no need to look for costly and esoteric products, unless smell is an issue.