Questions about old Palliard Motor.

[larryh]

I have a thread on the Sonora smallest model. I have been told its a Model O. The motor is something a bit different looking than others I have experienced. The spring tends to want to jump some, although I put a bit of oil in the opening at the edge of the barrel and some white grease. That after a few windings has made it run quite a bit smoother. I greased the gears and oiled the bearing points. It actually runs with considerable less noise imparted to the motor board than it did. What I can't figure out an may be natural to these early motors is that when you wind it you can feel every cog as the crank goes around. I am used to machines that crank in a smooth continuous circle, this jumps and bumps which is rather difficult to turn.. Is this what these did or is something wrong? I can't see anything wrong with the gears but they do seem to mesh rather crudely as they go around winding the spring barrel.

It also has a Masterphone reproducer which has four tiny screws on the back side which must be how one removed it from the tone arm? The mica must come out and new gaskets installed all from the front like most reproducers, but it has not cover that screws on. Also what is the material that the spring adjustment use between them an the stylus bar?

If one removes the screws on the four corner post will that allow for the removal of the spring barrel and if so is there a trick to how the barrel is opened and the spring unhooked from the center post?

More than likely I will have to send the motor to someone to get it running properly but might give it a try. If not who would specialize in these early motors?

Larry

[Phono48]

The "jerkiness" when winding is almost certainly down to the old grease in the coils of the spring having hardened, thus preventing the coils sliding smoothly. The spring needs to be taken out, cleaned thoroughly, replaced and re-greased. Adding oil or grease to a filthy spring rarely achieves anything.

Removing the four nuts will allow you to remove the top plate, but make sure the spring is fully unwound first. If not, when you pull the plate off, the remaining power in the spring will cause it to fly round and possibly damage the various cogs. How you remove the cover on the spring barrel will depend on how it's fixed on. Can you upload a picture of the other side of the spring, so we can see how to open it?

Barry

[larryh]

Thanks for the information. I didn't really think adding the oil or grease would exactly fix it but it did at least let it run without constant jumping around. Your thought about the spring causing it to wind poorly didn't occur to me but then I am not a mechanical expert for sure. I don't think have even tried to clean a spring and remove it since the early 60s when a friend of mine showed me how he did it. As far as the other side photo I didn't see any screws anywhere from any part of it I could see while its put together as it is. I would have to remove the barrel from the motor to see if anything obvious shows up. One thing I do remember is to never take a motor apart or remove anything while wound. If I do take it out of there I will photo it and place it in this thread.

Larry

[gramophone78]

Larry, As previously mentioned in your other thread, the reproducer is called a "Maestrophone Maestoso". A Masterphone is a US made attachment... .
Also, I believe your reproducer has three (not four) little screws on the reverse. There is no real need to remove these as the screw heads can snap off. There are two rubber insulator rings inside. There is no need to replace these and have nothing to do with sound quality.
The main rubbers can be replaced with Exhibition white rubber tubing. However, it can be tricky aligning the mica correctly.
If they look good and clean....I would probably just leave it.

Hope this helps... .

[larryh]

I just finished taking the spring barrel out of the motor and figuring out how to clean the spring. Even with a clamp on the edge to help contain the spring it got away from me toward the last. Lucky no damage to me or the spring. What puzzles me is that the inside of the case is almost as clean as the motor was when it got it. Its like they almost had no lubricant inside the spring barrel? There was a bit of residue on the lid and on the base but just a light film. I don't see how the tiny amount of grease in the barrel could have been much of an issue?

So now that its apart and the spring washed in kerosene along with the barrel and the other running gears, all of which when I got it were almost grease free. I am not sure what to put in it. I have the White lubrication grease which I am guessing would work but I recall that my friend used to add graphite to the grease when he put it back in the case. I will look on line for a suggestion which I am sure there are a number of. I hope to get it back together by tonight to see how it acts. Where the rachet gear winds the spring barrel I took care to wash those parts good as somehow they seemed to be the issue but I have hopes the spring was the problem as mentioned above.

There was just one threaded nut on the shaft that had to be removed in order to allow the shaft to be disconnected from the barrel, then the lid under that simply pried off.


Larry

[Phono48]

It was the addition of graphite that made the old grease harden. Use a modern all-purpose grease from an Automobile spares shop.

If there was hardly any grease on the spring coils, then the coils could not slip past each other as you were winding it. Old solid grease, or none at all, will both cause the same problem.

Before replacing the motor, oil both ends of the governor bearings and the shaft that the governor assembly slides on. Also make sure that the little felt pad that runs on the governor plate is soaked in thin oil. Oil all the bearings and pivots, and grease all gears.

Barry

[gramophone78]

One thing that has not been mentioned....you should avoid at all costs putting any solvents of lubricates of any kind on the fiber gear that connects with the governor. These will soften the teeth and cause irreparable damage (especially under load). This gear would be very difficult to locate and or replace if damaged.

DSC09024.JPG (50.27 KiB) Viewed 1570 times

[larryh]

Does that mean oil, or kerosene, I brushed the gear off with that.. I got the spring greased an after some difficulty getting it started back into the barrel. It runs now smoothly as the spring is concerned but the motor it self rumbles enough to be a bit too obvious when mounted in the cabinet. It may be about as much as that motor can do though. I don't have the speed control dial in place and it is running without it near the 78 speed I would guess. The motor doesn't want to pull a longer length 12 inch record quite to the end. I am hoping when I have the speed control and the exact speed that it may got a little longer. I think this why I have usually gravitated to the more expensive models they avoid many of these issues.

Larry

[GrafonolaG50]

Not an answer, but I would have a hard time using a motor as beautiful as that one with the shiny steel and brass

[gramophone78]

Does that mean oil, or kerosene, I brushed the gear off with that.. I got the spring greased an after some difficulty getting it started back into the barrel. It runs now smoothly as the spring is concerned but the motor it self rumbles enough to be a bit too obvious when mounted in the cabinet. It may be about as much as that motor can do though. I don't have the speed control dial in place and it is running without it near the 78 speed I would guess. The motor doesn't want to pull a longer length 12 inch record quite to the end. I am hoping when I have the speed control and the exact speed that it may got a little longer. I think this why I have usually gravitated to the more expensive models they avoid many of these issues.

Larry

Larry, avoid any further oil or solvent on the fiber gear. It should remain dry. Placing oil or solvent (kerosene) can also lead to premature tooth deterioration (they will soften). Keep in mind this single spring motor was one of Paillard's lower end motors.

I also noted the fiber gear teeth appear somewhat worn already. This will also cause excessive noise.

Of all the ones I have had (either two or one spring), they are not quiet.

Attempting to adjust the governor may also cause damage to the fiber gear. So, I would just enjoy it as it is.