The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Good Evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

It appears to have been quite some time since I have last posted on this forum, but I have had relatively little to contribute lately. However, I have a tale for you tonight, and it is drama as a high art. If anything, it shall prove interesting, and challenging.

Wednesday night, I became aware of the appearance of an HMV 194 on craigslist.org for $275.00. Here is an image of the ad, as it might have been removed by now:http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2194/copy2i.jpg. Although I am not very familiar with the phonographs made by Victor Talking Machine Co.'s British affiliate, HMV, I could tell that this was a special phonograph upon first glance. A couple quick calls to some collecting friends caused me to find out that this is indeed one of the best-sounding machines that one can acquire, and confirmed my suspicions. With that knowledge in hand, I contacted the seller, who lives in NE Wake Forest, North Carolina, and was shocked to find that it was still available for sale. I quickly made arrangements to purchase the machine, offering them more than what they asked in order to hold the machine, and told them that I would drive down on Friday to pick it up. I knew it would be a long trip, totaling in excess of 9 hours of travel time, and 500 miles, but I thought it would be worth it. I slept soundly those two nights, looking forward to what Friday would bring.

Friday morning June 12th, 2009, this morning, I rolled out of my driveway, bound for Wake Forest. After over four hours of driving, and a quick pit stop at Bojangles, I arrived at the home of the seller. The seller shook my hand, showed me the machine, and allowed me to play it. I must say that I have never heard such an extraordinary sounding machine, and thought it would make a fine addition to my small collection. The sheer volume and quality of sound was unbelievable, far better than a Victor Credenza or 10-50. However, while listening to the machine, I noticed the demeanor of the husband was rather odd (the seller was combination of husband/wife team). He seemed incredibly nervous, and mentioned that he had received a substantial offer for this HMV 193, which, I must admit, was not in the best of condition. Not thinking much of it, and believing that in this day and age one's word still means something, I pulled out my cash and prepared to hand it to him.

In the meantime however, the husband seemed to grow rather agitated. He then rather tersely explained to me that he could not sell this HMV 194 to me, because he was offered in excess of one thousand dollars for it, and told that it was worth far more. I then told him of the amount of time and expense that I would waste if he backed out. I then doubled my offer, largely because I didn't want to waste my time for the trip, and because I really wanted this machine. The husband also seemed to suggest that he didn’t want to sell it because he would feel “stupid” for not having done his research.

Upon my making another offer, the husband decided he needed to talk it over with whom I presumed to be his wife. He then returned with his wife, who, after some discussion then proceeded to berate me for doubling my offer, suggesting that I knew the true value and was being unfair by even offering to purchase the machine at their asking price in the first place! (This is a phenomenon I have run into before in the hobby, and I call it “Golddigger’s Fever.” Individuals who have it believe they are sitting on a gold mine, and will do whatever they can to get top dollar for their items, often at the expense of others.) Isn’t an item worth whatever one is willing to pay for it, and that it is largely a relative concept? I wondered how this lady would run a business. Perhaps she wouldn’t charge more than her cost, so as not to be unfair to her customers?

Which, maybe money was an issue, or maybe it wasn’t. I did notice that this couple was reasonably well-to-do, or at least maintained the appearances of such a lifestyle. For example, I noticed a fairly new BMW, their large and relatively new house, a pool, small boat, and a few other items.

Unfortunately, I had somehow inadvertently hurt this couple’s pride in my discussion. In deference to the seller, I will note that the husband offered to drive with me to the gas station and pay me for my gas. I declined his offer and quickly left, because it would suggest that I agreed that the machine had not been sold, contrary to what was stated on the phone, and it was a crude and insufficient way for the seller to say, from my perspective, “I’m sorry. I would rather make more money than honor a gentleman’s agreement.” It was a rather ridiculous proposition anyhow. In hindsight, perhaps I should have asked him to pay for some candy and a soda while he got some cash for my gas.

I have a very short mental list of individuals who at first seemed to be normal and reasonable, but the mention of who now leave a bad taste in my mouth. Although this couple could carry out this transaction that we agreed to and allow me to remove them from that list, I suspect that won’t happen. Which, it’s a shame, because they seemed to be honest folks like the rest of us, who can see beyond the size of their wallet.

If anything, I offer you, gentle reader, a warning. Even honest people, perhaps you or I, sometimes take their thirty pieces of silver, and break a promise, at the great expense of another.

Cordially,

Garret D. Girmus
Amateur Historian of Early Recorded Sound
College of William and Mary, Class of 2011

P.S.

If you are the collector who made an offer on this HMV 194, and I am fairly certain as to who you may be, please note that you were not the first one to run into it, and that although you are not at fault for the actions of the seller, this machine has bad karma attached to it.

Oh Garret...What a shame you missed out on the 194. It really stinks that the seller broke his word & some dog bought it from under you. They sell for between $5000 & $7000 out here, so it really was a bargain.
If nothing else, I'm glad that you got to hear the second biggest Re-entrant- even though you've wasted all that time, effort & expense to do it. I think you'll be on "America's most wanted" for claiming the 193/4 sounds better than a Credenza or 10-50 though lol.
I guess you're one of the few Americans that can probably understand why the bigger 202 is regarded as the best sounding internal horn machine ever made.
Maybe karma will pay you back with a 202 oneday

Garrett,
Sorry for your luck on that one. Please keep this sort of unethical behavior in mind as you enter the practice of law!

I have a similar story, though not as traumatic. I was at a garage sale in Upland, California a number of years ago. There was a perfectly nice-looking Coleman fluorescent camping lantern sitting in the middle of the driveway. I asked about the lantern and the husband said, "It's broken . . . a dollar." I walked over to pay the wife who was collecting the money up by the garage door. As soon as I had paid her, I heard the voice of their five year-old daughter behind me, "Look, Daddy! Look! It's working!" I turned around and sure enough . . . their freakin' kid had made it work! It was lit up bright!

The dad yells, "Hey! I ain't selling you that for a dollar!" I could feel my hackles come up ready for the confrontation. Before I could say a word, his wife spoke up, "Oh yes you are! He just paid for it! If you were too stupid and lazy to figure it out, its not his problem!"

Sensing the impending storm, I grabbed my lantern and got the hell out! I still have it!

Sometime, I'll have to tell you about the "$20.00" McIntosh tube amplifier in the pawn shop in Phoenix, aka 'The Case of the Misplaced Decimal Point'. That one didn't have such a happy ending.

John M

sorry to hear about that garrett... it sounds like you did put in the effort even though you weren't the only one to know about this machine, and being that there was no formal contract there's not much you can do about it. if anything, it perhaps illustrates the power that diplomacy - a laid-back demeanor and a casual friendly air - can have in such situations. it's easy to put people on guard who, unfamiliar with the value of something they want to sell, suddenly discover that someone not only immediately wants to buy it, but that someone else almost as immediately offers them far more. in the face of that second offer from someone else, your offering them more money yourself may have justifibly confused them a bit, especially if they already were nervous about the deal - if anything could have gotten you out of that, it likely just would have been a gift for the gab, you know? and an ability to put people at ease (such that they're working with you the buyer, a person and their new friend, to help you and them both get what you both want... as opposed to them, the seller, growing increasingly fearful of being - from their perspective - ripped off by a stranger)... nevertheless, all that admittedly might be difficult to focus on when you're looking at a gold mine offered for sale for a piece of tin...

in that respect, you've got to realize that you really were about to get something for close to nothing, in that you could have - even if you had no intention to - flipped the machine immediately for 10 times or more what you were going to pay for it. their ignorance is no excuse in such situations, and you definitely got the short end of the stick given the time you invested, but were the situation reversed you'd likely see it differently (did you by the way call them before you started your drive to confirm - really confirm - everything? and knowing what you'd found, why wouldn't you have just immediately wednesday night gone to get it?... these aren't accusations, rather suggestions to perhaps consider next time around, because there always will be another).

and so far as role reversals, think of something you might have, that you don't know much about and have no interest in that you decide to sell for a few dollars just to get rid of it. someone contacts you, wants to come and offers more than your asking price... you're thrilled, right? but then curious? then not long after, before that buyer shows up, you're contacted by someone else who triples the offer. what then? gentlemen's agreements will be gentlemen's agreements, but at times they often can involve the gentlemanly act of letting something go... allowing that other gentleman, however ill-informed and nervous and annoying, off the hook in the face of what obviously was a mistake (those people clearly had no idea what that hmv was worth, and then they found out before they'd entered any legally binding contract, let alone actually sold it... and I'll tell you garrett, there are situations where courts will invalidate contracts under certain theories when, most simply put, buyers with superior knowledge are perceived to have taken advantage of a seller's ignorance... not that that happened here, but no matter).

fear not though, garrett, this machine may very well end up safely in the hands of one of those special craigslist-trolling collectors who can dutifully store and care for and occasionally shuffle past this machine once it takes its place in a climate controlled room full of a hundred or likely more other such machines. unless of course a dealer beat you to it... probably best to rise above it, but it may have been easy enough to further educate those sellers once the deal was done, and provide them with a couple of contacts and information concerning just how much they could be getting for this machine.

long and short of it, though, that situation sucks, period. sorry for you garrett.

brianu wrote:... and I'll tell you garrett, there are situations where courts will invalidate contracts under certain theories when, most simply put, buyers with superior knowledge are perceived to have taken advantage of a seller's ignorance...

My condolences as well Garrett. I do have to say that I find it ironic that the same courts that find that 'superior knowledge' has 'taken advantage' of 'ignorance' are populated with legal professionals who have no qualms about charging [insert 'outrageous' amount here] for THEIR expertise in their special field(s)!

I have spent countless thousands of hours traveling, visiting museums, collections, shows, etc.; thousands of dollars on gasoline, expensive books, lodging, meals, etc. to run down my interests; and yet I am obligated to educate the uneducated and worse -- the uneducatable? I don't think so. If someone asks me what something is and/or what it is 'worth', I'll tell them. If they tell me what they want for it, I have no obligation to educate them.

I also find it ironic that people who seem to be able to work a computer well enough to advertise something for sale on eBay or Craigslist can't seem to work Google enough to figure out what it is that they are selling. There is no excuse for that in this day and age. It is simple intellectual laziness or dullness, and I for one, won't reward it.

John M

JohnM wrote:

brianu wrote:... and I'll tell you garrett, there are situations where courts will invalidate contracts under certain theories when, most simply put, buyers with superior knowledge are perceived to have taken advantage of a seller's ignorance...

My condolences as well Garrett. I do have to say that I find it ironic that the same courts that find that 'superior knowledge' has 'taken advantage' of 'ignorance' are populated with legal professionals who have no qualms about charging [insert 'outrageous' amount here] for THEIR expertise in their special field(s)!

I have spent countless thousands of hours traveling, visiting museums, collections, shows, etc.; thousands of dollars on gasoline, expensive books, lodging, meals, etc. to run down my interests; and yet I am obligated to educate the uneducated and worse -- the uneducatable? I don't think so. If someone asks me what something is and/or what it is 'worth', I'll tell them. If they tell me what they want for it, I have no obligation to educate them.

I also find it ironic that people who seem to be able to work a computer well enough to advertise something for sale on eBay or Craigslist can't seem to work Google enough to figure out what it is that they are selling. There is no excuse for that in this day and age. It is simple intellectual laziness or dullness, and I for one, won't reward it.

John M

wow, well, I can appreciate the force of your response. to note, I wasn't saying that anyone was obligated to "educate" anyone else. in part, I was acknowledging garrett's use of the term "gentleman's agreement" and noted the irony - that it can be gentlemanly to forge and honor an unwritten understanding or agreement without formalities, and yet equally "gentlemanly" (???) to know or learn the true value of something involved in such a deal while realizing the other gentleman does not, and to then hold that gentleman to the deal when he develops legitimate second thoughts. that's gentlemanly? or, for that matter (AND NOT THAT THIS WAS THE CASE HERE), how gentlemanly is it to wander into financially ailing grandma smith's house (facing foreclosure because she can't afford the taxes any longer), and while helping her clean the place out find out the old graphomophone player she's got in the attic and wants on the curb is an auxetophone... how gentlemanly is it to say, sure, I'll take care of that for you right away and be off with it??? in responding to garrett's post, I was hoping to point out certain ironies at the very least.

and the reference to the courts and contract theory was merely an analogy, and not one that's totally on-point here... all parties in such transactions are expected to perform their due diligence... I was simply pointing out that courts do at times take into consideration unfair bargaining power or position that certain parties have over others and knowingly take advantage... it's usually something that occurs more frequently in commercial transactions - big business and little business, or sophisticated business and hapless buyer faced with a confusing form boilerplate contract with lots of fine and confusing print.

and so far as your lawyer/legal professionals comment... we all come from different backgrounds here, have different careers and ways of making our honest livings... no need to disparage in ways more suited to other now defunct boards. needless to say, I always find it funny too how people badmouth lawyers as a whole (without taking into account that lawyers/legal professionals, like ebay sellers, fall into myriad categories) and complain about how much lawyers charge for services until they do something stupid or find themselves in trouble, at which point they cannot thank their lawyer enough... they also fail to consider that those charges by the lawyer/legal professional don't simply enter his/her bank account and fill his/her gold-plated house... it for the most part covers the overhead of legal assistants and staff, paperwork, cost of office space and supplies, malpractice insurance, other insurance, not to mention all the court fees and costs associated with a given case, as well as the mere work that's being done on it.

Brian,
My response wasn't meant as a scathing indictment of your post at all! Please don't take it that way! I'm just voicing my opinion. But what is the difference between a lawyer's expenses and my expenses to achieve a given level of expertise in a given field? Why do the attorneys in the type of case referenced think it is bad faith for someone to exploit their knowledge, but not bad faith for them to exploit theirs? That's all!

There was a lawsuit a few years ago where a dealer was selling a First Phase Native American blanket in an antique mall for a pittance. Another dealer recognized what it was and sold it for around $200-300K as I recall. The first dealer sued the second dealer and WON! Sorry, I maintain that the second dealer has no obligation to educate the first dealer.

One's 'gentlemanly' behavior is of course, a personal choice, but, for example, the attorney that handled my late uncle's estate, liquidated all assets to cash immediately, did not file an inventory, did not pay any taxes on the estate, did not inform the heirs when the executor died, was the subject of 5 show cause hearings, and dragged it on for six years, only to have it turned over to the public administrator, did not have any qualms about asking for a full billing for the 'work' he did on the estate. I have yet to see an attorney reduce their bill because of an attack of conscience.

I've never been a huge fan of the concept of 'philanthropy'. Why spend one's life clawing the guts out of humanity, only to give it all back just to make one's self look good?

John M, Esq.

JohnM wrote:Brian,
My response wasn't meant as a scathing indictment of your post at all! Please don't take it that way! I'm just voicing my opinion. But what is the difference between a lawyer's expenses and my expenses to achieve a given level of expertise in a given field? Why do the attorneys in the type of case referenced think it is bad faith for someone to exploit their knowledge, but not bad faith for them to exploit theirs? That's all!

There was a lawsuit a few years ago where a dealer was selling a First Phase Native American blanket in an antique mall for a pittance. Another dealer recognized what it was and sold it for around $200-300K as I recall. The first dealer sued the second dealer and WON! Sorry, I maintain that the second dealer has no obligation to educate the first dealer.

One's 'gentlemanly' behavior is of course, a personal choice, but, for example, the attorney that handled my late uncle's estate, liquidated all assets to cash immediately, did not file an inventory, did not pay any taxes on the estate, did not inform the heirs when the executor died, was the subject of 5 show cause hearings, and dragged it on for six years, only to have it turned over to the public administrator, did not have any qualms about asking for a full billing for the 'work' he did on the estate. I have yet to see an attorney reduce their bill because of an attack of conscience.

I've never been a huge fan of the concept of 'philanthropy'. Why spend one's life clawing the guts out of humanity, only to give it all back just to make one's self look good?

John M, Esq.

sorry, crappy weather and long week at work here (also phono deal gone awry) maybe put me in a defensive sounding mode... no offense was really taken any way... lawyers can be easy targets, and I'll be the first to admit that as in any profession, an amply sufficient layer of scum can be found in the legal arena as well... sorry to hear about your estate issues by the way, it's terrible when people are forced to deal with such things at such trying, vulnerable times.

and I got your comparison, the work it took you to develop your particular knowledge base, the work it takes an attorney to do the same... the only difference, in regard to exploitation, is that a person goes to an attorney to pay for those services the person can't do but knows the attorney can... that's not exploitation, the attorney is performing an agreed-upon service for an agreed-upon amount and using his/her knowledge to the benefit of the client. in the underhanded transaction, I'm speaking more to people who have the upperhand, know they have the upperhand, and use that upperhand solely to their own benefit and to the detriment of the person they're doing business with, playing on that person's weakness for their own gain. it's very different.

but so far as philanthropy, although that's kind of beyond the scope of things... I don't know, the notion of altruism and doing good solely for the sake of doing good with no ulterior motives is debateable, but philanthropy... if you have a lot (or more than others), regardless of how you got it, and especially if you don't need it all, and you see that someone else is in dire need for it, for something you can give them (and I'm not talking victrolas here... or getting into welfare debates, etc.), then why not help them. whatever... sorry to stray from victrolas...

all I ever intended to say was that garrett got a raw deal, but that most people in the seller's position would probably have acted similarly (esp if possessive of minimal philanthropic leanings to begin with)... I mean, at least they could have given him some food money along with the gas.

Brianu----- Why are you apologizing for your well thought out and equally well written views. We seem to live in this present world where when things go wrong, it is always the other persons fault. If the lawyer HE hired to perform and accomplish his needs, failed in his estimation, then then HE did not do his required homework as to was the lawyer up to performing the required tasks? You get what you pay for. As for "tearing out the guts of humanity", the poster exposed himself. Some people would take the pennies out of a dead man's eyes (because they can make a buck---or a portion thereof) while others would leave them in place -----and just say a prayer for the deceased----at no charge. Brianu, you have morals and I applaud you,sir. Michael

Michael,
My dead uncle hired the lawyer when he was alive.

Interesting story about this lawyer. I was at a fiddle repairman's shop having a fiddle fixed and inquired how he got into the business. He told me that a man taught him beginning when he was a teen-ager. He made the comment that this man was a good repairman, but a miserable human being. This man used to do things like steal the good necks out of fiddles that people had brought him to repair and substitute an inferior neck keeping the good necks for himself . . . sort of like the diamond switching that dishonest jewelers allegedly do. "Yes, I'll never forget old [insert name]", he concluded. "That's funny," I replied. "I just spent years wrangling with a crooked attorney over settling my uncle's estate, and that was the lawyer's name, too!" "Oh," said the repairman, 'the lawyer is his son." Apples don't fall far from the tree, I say.

John M