The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

A few years ago, I started a thread concerning a nicely restored Victor VI & cabinet that I sold. The buyer was initially thrilled with his purchase, then called me a few days later raising all sorts of hell. It seems an "expert" collector had come over to see his new acquisition and declared the Victor VI a reproduction, specifically one made by Eduardo Portilla in Peru. Knowing this not to be the case, I nevertheless offered the buyer a full and immediate refund. I also checked with fellow Forum member Ken Brekke, who had sold the VI to me, and he told me down to the last detail how long he owned it, how he had it restored, who did the plating, mechanics, etc. I also contacted Eduardo in Peru, who confirmed that he has never made the particular case style in question. Armed with this information, I presented the emails from Ken and Eduardo to my buyer who then accepted my word and indeed subsequently purchased several big-ticket items from me shortly thereafter. He even posted pictures on the Forum of these proud additions to his collection.

Fast-forward a few years, and another collector buys a different Victor VI from me, one I had acquired from a fellow Forum member as well. It was on display at Union and no issues of merit were noted by anybody who checked it out. My buyer was quite happy with it, except for a small issue with the crank, which didn't concern me when I had it, but I promised to resolve. Shortly thereafter, he buys a nice early Victor D from me, and I tested and oiled it fully before packing and shipping. In good faith I even shipped it before his PayPal payment cleared. Now I learn that it didn't work when he got it unpacked, and an "expert" collector he had look at it declared that I must have knowingly shipped a defective machine. He then proceeded to advise my buyer that the finish was not original (false). For all I know (and this has happened before) the tissue paper may still be in the governor, preventing the turntable from rotating. Now my customer is 100% unhappy with BOTH machines and is accusing me of misrepresenting their condition. (The "expert" had pointed out the worn spots on the Victor VI plating, which were barely noticeable).

My purpose in explaining all of this is to ask, why do some collectors feel that it is their duty to degrade another's purchase, turning a happy collector into a dissatisfied one? To me it's like asking your friend why he married such an ugly woman, he can do better than that. It serves no purpose and defeats what hobbies such as this are supposed to do - make people feel good.

Raphael

My best guess is simply greed. You trade in higher end machines and the so called experts are unhappy that they didn't broker or directly sell the machine. Your best efforts to educate a buyer can be undermined without providing warnings about trolls. Just because someone can afford to buy the best clearly doesn't protect them from unsavory salesman, however your business has a reputation that should speak for itself. Educate the buyer and you might be able to counter it.

I'll usually give my opinion on something if asked BEFORE the person buys the machine.
Similar to the way a lot of us will chime in when someone is on the fence about a machine and they post
a picture and ask for opinions.

If they've already bought the machine and are showing me it, I usually admire and congratulate.

However, if I was engaged in a conversation with a friend who bought a machine that had incorrect parts
on it, and they proceeded to tell me that it was %100 original, I MAY respectfully disagree and point out the few flaws. I don't think I've ever done this though, I'm just speaking hypothetically. I'm not enough of an expert.

I once told my best friend who was dancing with a girl at a bar that he should ditch her because her nose was gigantic. He ended up dating her for several years, I always felt uncomfortable around them.

He eventually dumped her though.

Her nose was huge.

As some of you may be aware, we have experienced some health challlenges of late in our household. However, these problems have not affected my husbands ability to read. To that end, he is dictating to me on this thread so I may then share his voice. As you may have guessed by other posts, he does have quite an opinion on issues of legitimacy, honesty, greed, and anything relevant to such. These are his words.
I must put the responsibility wholely upon the buyer. Wether you have the money of Donald Trump, or barely enough money to make the purchase, the responsibility of decision making regarding if you decide to pull the trigger to buy or not falls upon you, the buyer, before the sale and prior to you taking possession of the item. If you feel like you want to have an army of experts critique the piece prior to you pulling the trigger, well knock yourself out! But, it will be done before money changes hands and while I am still in possession of the item. Otherwise, from what I understand Mr. Cole's policies to be regarding returns, I do not see how anyone could find fault in them. To take possession of an item, invite ANYBODY else over to critique it, and demand anything of the seller based upon someone else's observations is, amongst many things, an indication to me that the purchaser has more damned money than they do sense. And to the expert who is so willing to freely spout their critical observations...would not your "expertise" be much better put to task by making an honest deal with a youngster and teaching them how to work on a motor, or possibly setting up an exhibit at your local historical society? That is, if you can break away from your computer long enough scouring Craigslist in every freaking city in this nation for the next Edison standard that might, God forbid, escape your grip.

....turning a happy collector into a dissatisfied one? To me it's like asking your friend why he married such an ugly woman, he can do better than that. It serves no purpose and defeats what hobbies such as this are supposed to do - make people feel good.

Raphael


Greed? Sour grapes? Generally unhappy with their fortune in life and want to share it with others? I dunno....

Some years ago, a local phonograph collector/dealer (who is *not* a member of this board) stopped by my house and saw my modest collection. This was just a casual visit, or so I thought. He expressed interest in buying one machine, which I quite like and enjoyed playing. I wasn't interested in selling (and I'm still not.) Visibly annoyed with me, he said "Kirk, except for that one machine, your whole collection isn't worth sh*t!" I tried to explain that my collection is for my own enjoyment, that there are different ways of defining "value", but he wasn't having any of it. He told me that he'd been collecting a long time and knew all of the old school collectors who pay the big money "for the good stuff". Well. Until this little verbal exchange, I wasn't aware I was supposed to feel ashamed of what I had. Lucky for me, I still enjoy what I find and have manged to steer clear of this guy since.

Unhappy / unpleasant people feel a need to spread their misery

Raphael wrote:Shortly thereafter, he buys a nice early Victor D from me, and I tested and oiled it fully before packing and shipping. In good faith I even shipped it before his PayPal payment cleared. Now I learn that it didn't work when he got it unpacked, and an "expert" collector he had look at it declared that I must have knowingly shipped a defective machine.
Raphael

Collectors of 100-year old mechanical devices should be able to deal with the fact that the machine may eventually break in transport even if well packed, or just break at any time, and that you cannot really go back to the manufacturer and complain. When machines have issues, the seller may or may not help. When I bought a Victor from a reputable dealer in Holland, it arrived with a broken governor spring. I contacted him and he promptly sent me three new ones with a recommendation to replace all three and instructions on how to do it. Another reputable dealer-collector in England sent me for free a winding crank for a HMV Sheraton I had bought (not from him) and came without it. On the negative side, I bought machines from dealers that came with obviously missing parts or have been tampered with. What did I do? gave the dealer the benefit of doubt, and negotiated, or tried to, a mutually agreeable price reduction, but put the seller's name in my caveat emptor list.

Unfortunately there are just mean-spirited people in the world who, often out of their own misery, lash out and try to make others as miserable as they are. Scrooge has real-life counterparts. When I find one, I may pray that they may find peace, but avoid them if at all possible. Life is just too short and there are two many fine people in the world to let them pollute my life.

Clay

FloridaClay wrote:Unfortunately there are just mean-spirited people in the world who, often out of their own misery, lash out and try to make others as miserable as they are. Scrooge has real-life counterparts. When I find one, I may pray that they may find peace, but avoid them if at all possible. Life is just too short and there are two many fine people in the world to let them pollute my life.

Clay

Amen to that

FloridaClay wrote:Unfortunately there are just mean-spirited people in the world who, often out of their own misery, lash out and try to make others as miserable as they are. Scrooge has real-life counterparts. When I find one, I may pray that they may find peace, but avoid them if at all possible. Life is just too short and there are two many fine people in the world to let them pollute my life.

Clay

Ditto