The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Dear all,

This is a follow up to my post in August last year (http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... 11&t=22907) about the EMG large horn gramophone that had accompanied me for much of my adult life. Wonderfully assisted by contributors to this site it is time to give a link to the documentation of the gramophone's renewal and my accompanying list of all known EMG large horn gramophones.

The website is at http://emg.things-that-count.net

There you will find:

*A list of all known EMG "Large horn" gramophones (http://emg.things-that-count.net/list)

*A video of my EMG Mark XA (Export) gramophone (with John Amadio playing the finale to Mozart's Concerto in D Major) (http://emg.things-that-count.net/videos)

*Comparison recordings of the same piece on this gramophone played with its rebuilt EMG 4-spring mica diaphragm soundbox and with a Meltrope-III aluminium diaphragm soundbox, with separate recordings on each with steel and thorn styluses.(http://emg.things-that-count.net/videos)

*Details of the horn conservation and soundbox rebuild consisting of:- an account (documented with photos) of the conservation of my gramophone's horn by Melbourne University's Centre for Cultural Materials Conservation, and Chunny's rebuild of the EMG-4 spring sound box; and demonstration recordings of the soundbox before and after the rebuild on his Expert Senior.(http://emg.things-that-count.net/cons)

*Other resources and information about ancilliary equipment, documents and information.

None of the above would have been possible without the great expert assistance and advice provided from you all! I remain a new boy and there will be errors. Please let me know if anything needs to be changed, or if it would be helpful to add anything additional.

And good luck and good listening in 2016!

Best wishes,

Jim

Pardon me for criticizing, but I think (compared with my memories of other recordings of the same piece) that the Mozart is being played way too fast: to my ear, it should be pitched nearly a fourth lower.

Bill

Lucius1958 wrote:Pardon me for criticizing, but I think (compared with my memories of other recordings of the same piece) that the Mozart is being played way too fast: to my ear, it should be pitched nearly a fourth lower.

Bill

Thanks Bill.

I did have a nasty feeling about that - even though Amadio was renowned for his flashy techique. I had tested the speed of the turntable several times with a 78 rpm (50 Hz - Australian frequency) strobe pattern and it seemed to be right on - but I agree with you - it is very fast - as I recall quite a bit faster even than Galway plays it.

So - perhaps back to the drawing board with checking the platten speed. However, I now understand that records of the era (this was recorded circa 1928) were recorded at speeds which could vary perhaps in the range 72-80 rpm. If this is the case then I may have been led astray by setting the platten speed to 78 rpm. The issue, as you say will then be pitch.

Speed is easy to redo if the speed is wrong since I can simply reprocess the recordings to a lower speed - the beauties of digital recording! I have just tried the video at 97% of its current speed and it does sound more plausible ! I guess a 3% deviation is consistent with the 72-80 rpm range that I found in an article just now.

Exact equalising of pitch between the recorded sound and frequency standard could be a bit tricky. If I can test the pitch of a particular note (eg the three bars of middle D -(at bars 440-442 in the score) with a frequency meter that might do it, or tune simply tune by ear having with a flute tuned to a frequency meter (I have the flute, and I should have a meter somewhere - or I did).

But I would love to find a more precise way to establish that I have got it absolutely right. Here is an idea. I can find bars 440-2 and clip them in Audacity and then loop the result to create a sustained note which can be tested against a frequency meter (provided I can extract the note well enough from background. In any case I can check it by ear against an audible standard "tuning fork"). But there is probably a much easier approach that you guys are very familiar with. Any suggestions welcome.

I will come back here when I have checked and if necessary reprocessed.


All the best,

Jim

Congratulations on such an absolutely beautiful horn on that gramophone. That has to be the best preserved one I've seen (in an admittedly limited experience of EMG gramophones.)
I happen to have my relatively recently tuned piano close by and several times went to the keyboard to check the pitch of your recording. By my reckoning it is very close indeed to D, the key mentioned in the title. I do hear some pitch flutter right enough, presumably caused by the turntable?
However the reproduction - wonderful! And thanks for going to the bother of uploading all that and sharing with us!
Very enjoyable - I like the audience sounds prior to the beginning too!
Séamus

Frankia wrote:Congratulations on such an absolutely beautiful horn on that gramophone. That has to be the best preserved one I've seen (in an admittedly limited experience of EMG gramophones.)
I happen to have my relatively recently tuned piano close by and several times went to the keyboard to check the pitch of your recording. By my reckoning it is very close indeed to D, the key mentioned in the title. I do hear some pitch flutter right enough, presumably caused by the turntable?
However the reproduction - wonderful! And thanks for going to the bother of uploading all that and sharing with us!
Very enjoyable - I like the audience sounds prior to the beginning too!
Séamus

Many thanks Séamus. That is very encouraging! I have to say I was initially more concerned about the realism of the speed than intonation. However, when I met Galway a year or so ago and told him that the legendary (now sadly deceased) Leslie Barklamb, who had studied under Amadio, had said that Galway was (perhaps even) better than Amadio, Galway seemed to take that as a compliment! So perhaps Amadio did play that fast!

I have now created a looped single note, identifiable in the score, and can check that against a frequency meter so I guess I will be able to settle any issues of intonation hopefully once and for all once I get my hands on my tuner frequency meter (if it is anywhere), or maybe there is an app that does the same job.

The flutter is definitely there I am afraid, and yes, it is caused by the motor/turntable. I am not sure what I could do to stabilise that. Any hints from anyone would be much appreciated.

The audience sounds, I have to admit, are from the Royal Albert Hall, and I inserted them at the beginning to fill an otherwise uncomfortable sound vacuum. I don't think the crowd was waiting for a performance by an EMG Xa or Xb - but you never know

All the best,

Jim

The Mozart Flute Concerto is sounding in D alright; it's just a very fast tempo. Don't tamper with anything mechanical, it's right on pitch!

Jozwolf wrote:The flutter is definitely there I am afraid, and yes, it is caused by the motor/turntable. I am not sure what I could do to stabilise that. Any hints from anyone would be much appreciated.

Good morning Jim and very many thanks for your excellent work and posts---the grass has not been growing under your feet---impressive results---well done !

I have not yet had time to read/listen to everything you have listed, but in relation to the turntable, I do think it would be most beneficial to try to achieve a level playing field. I cannot remember what motor you are using ? I do have a few Garrard items which may help but otherwise why not acquire an old (surplus) spindle which could be used judiciously in the lathe to true-up your own example ? It would appear from a cursory inspection that it is the turntable which is in trouble rather than the spindle ? If you are unable to find an original spindle it should not be too much work for a machine shop to make a new slave tapered-ended shaft for use between centres. Let me know what you have please and I will try to help.

Sterling work Jim, most impressive - many thanks for publicising all this!

The pitch sounds spot-on to me too - but in any case one should be wary of adjusting speed to modern standard musical pitch - concert pitch may not have been A=440 in 1928, or for the orchestra on on the day of recording! If the engineers had everything set up correctly, I believe the speed would have been standard by that date at 77.92 rpm in countries with 50 Hz mains supply (78.26 rpm for 60 Hz) - someone will no doubt post to correct that assertion or expand on it!

Your horn looks glorious now, and it must be very satisfying to know it has been thoroughly stabilised for many years to come. Can you say whether the conservation work has made any difference to its sound finally?

emgcr wrote:

Jozwolf wrote:The flutter is definitely there I am afraid, and yes, it is caused by the motor/turntable. I am not sure what I could do to stabilise that. Any hints from anyone would be much appreciated.

Good morning Jim and very many thanks for your excellent work and posts---the grass has not been growing under your feet---impressive results---well done !

I have not yet had time to read/listen to everything you have listed, but in relation to the turntable, I do think it would be most beneficial to try to achieve a level playing field. I cannot remember what motor you are using ? I do have a few Garrard items which may help but otherwise why not acquire an old (surplus) spindle which could be used judiciously in the lathe to true-up your own example ? It would appear from a cursory inspection that it is the turntable which is in trouble rather than the spindle ? If you are unable to find an original spindle it should not be too much work for a machine shop to make a new slave tapered-ended shaft for use between centres. Let me know what you have please and I will try to help.

Hi Graham,

Thanks so much for those kind words. And thanks also for the possibility of help in relation to the turntable. That is one heck of a nice offer, and would be so much appreciated if improvement is possible. I noticed in particular when I looked at the video that the platten is not perfectly centered on the spindle. In fact it all seems a bit wiggly even if I press down on it and at some stage some glue was attempted but that didn't work. The motor is a Collaro D30 and I have pics of it (and the spindle) at http://metastudies.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph ... hisMachine. I could pull it all out and have a good look at it now we know there is a problem, although my guess is that it is the fit between the centre hole of the platen and the tapered shaft of the top of the spindle which has worn and is causing the problem. I will inspect and report back.

Warm good wishes,

Jim

Orchorsol wrote:Sterling work Jim, most impressive - many thanks for publicising all this!

The pitch sounds spot-on to me too - but in any case one should be wary of adjusting speed to modern standard musical pitch - concert pitch may not have been A=440 in 1928, or for the orchestra on on the day of recording! If the engineers had everything set up correctly, I believe the speed would have been standard by that date at 77.92 rpm in countries with 50 Hz mains supply (78.26 rpm for 60 Hz) - someone will no doubt post to correct that assertion or expand on it!

Your horn looks glorious now, and it must be very satisfying to know it has been thoroughly stabilised for many years to come. Can you say whether the conservation work has made any difference to its sound finally?

Lovely to hear from you and thanks very much for this useful (and reassuring information). I am some way to objectively testing the pitch but the consensus seems to be going with the original speed test with the strobe. So I guess he (along with the orchestra) just played that blindingly fast!

I am afraid I did not record the sound from the horn prior to conservation. I didn't have my classy digitising Zoom microphone. (I acquired that when my friend with the video gear brought one along and I just 'had' to have one!) But my impression is definitely that the base notes are just as good and the higher treble notes just a little more glittering post treatment. Anyway, to the extent that a digitised and reproduced version can ever capture the actual experience, at least the subsequent recordings tell how it sounds now.

Best of good wishes,

Jim