The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I´ve been a member since 2009, also read in the previous “Boards”… It´s great, that there is a category for Gramophones over the ocean, but – one thing I always wondered… why is this called “British and European Machines”? Just some thoughts of European collectors…

A – Britannia is a part of Europe…
B - Britannia hadn´t up to the 1920s a gramophone industry by their self
C – like (B), but also with the records

Almost all Gramophones sold in Britannia up to the 1920s had been produces in continental Europe – usually in the Swiss or Germany. At least almost all of the (metal) Hardware had been exported from the European continent.

Don´t misunderstand me, as said, it is great that there is a category about Gramophones made in the “old world”, but – why had this category been called as it is? From a historical point it should been called “European machines” or, if you like, “European & British Machines”.

Kind Regards

Hmmm.....

Rightly or wrongly, Britain had considered itself to be slightly apart and different from Europe at least until the latter quarter of the 20th Century. Hence, its social fabric and industries evolved differently from those on continental Europe.

With regards to the Talking Machine industry, I'm not too au fait with the Gramophone side of things but Edisonia/Edison Bell based in London was a huge manufacturer of Gramophones (Discaphones), Phonographs, records and cylinders prior to the outbreak of the Great War,priding itself that it's products were "British Made Throughout".

The HMV factory at Hayes commenced pressing records in, I believe, 1908 and manufacturing cabinets from 1911.

Barnett Samuel and Sons produced portable gramophones in the early years of the 20th Century and from 1914 manufactured a horn in the lid design later to be known as a "Trench Model".

There were also dozens of small and not so small manufactures of cylinder records prior to the outbreak of war, with the Premier Manufacturing Co. making both Clarion cylinders and discs.

I agree, there were lots of imported records,machines and machine parts, notably from Germany, but these of course all stopped in 1914 and the importation of non-essential goods into Britain from any source was banned altogether in 1916. The British Gramophone industry plus Clarion recording and making two minute cylinders, had to supply the total domestic market until 1919 when imports were again permitted.

Just some idle thoughts..

TW-W

Wagnerian wrote:The HMV factory at Hayes commenced pressing records in, I believe, 1908

And for another small morsel, I believe the Crystalate company in Kent were pressing records even earlier.

I would also add Columbia to the list. In 1900 their European Head Office was transferred from Paris to London, and when the London office moved to 81 City Road in 1911 a recording studio was opened there.

Columbia's low price Phoenix label was introduced in 1913 and their mid price Regal label in 1914. In 1917 the British company was registered in England with Louis Sterling as manager and Sir George Croydon Marks as chairman.

This category started as UK machine forum, mainly addressing EMG, Expert and HMV collectors. If I remember correctly I was the one who suggested to call this board "European machines". I always found the differentiation between British and European machines artificial and absurd. The European (talking machine) market was closely intertwined.

Orchorsol wrote:And for another small morsel, I believe the Crystalate company in Kent were pressing records even earlier.

Those "Crystalate" discs are a myth. Nobody has ever seen them.

Wagnerian wrote:Edisonia/Edison Bell based in London was a huge manufacturer of Gramophones (Discaphones), Phonographs, records and cylinders prior to the outbreak of the Great War,

Edison Bell produced large numbers of cylinders before 1909, when the cylinder trade collapsed, but played a negligible role as manufacturer of phonographs and gramophones. German, Swiss and U.S. machines dominated the British market almost exclusively until the outbreak of war in 1914.

"Those "Crystalate" discs are a myth. Nobody has ever seen them"

Could you please explain this statement?

I have three or four Crystalate 10" records, and they are plain to see on Google images.
The company also made "Guardsman" and I believe "Odeon" records.
Alistair.

clevelander wrote:"Those "Crystalate" discs are a myth. Nobody has ever seen them"

Could you please explain this statement?

In the 1920s, the Crystalate Manufacturing Co., Ltd. claimed to have made 5-inch discs of brown material in 1901, selling for two shillings and sixpence. If these existed, Crystalate would anticipate the Nicole Record Company, Ltd. as the first British disc record manufacturer by two years.

Crystalate was founded in 1902 as manufacturers of billiard balls from the compound which gave the company it's name. Record manufacture probably began in about 1908 following the acquisition of the defunct Neophone company.

Neophone was founded in 1904 and was the first company to manufacture and sell vertically cut disc records, anticipating Pathé by two years. Their inventor was William Michaelis, whose brother Alfred was the Gramophone Company's agent in Milan before becoming the managing director of Fonotipia.

Neophone records were made of a plastic material laminated to a cardboard base, and were said to be of poor tonal quality with excessive surface noise. They also required an adapter to enable them to be played on a conventional gramophone, a sure recipe for a limited sale.

epigramophone wrote:Crystalate was founded in 1902

The Crystalate Manufacturing Co., Ltd., was incorporated on August 2nd, 1901 with an office and a factory at Golden Green, Hadlow, Kent. It had taken over the manufacturing plant (billiard balls) of G. H. Burt and Company. George Henry Burt had pressed gramophone discs for Berliner and (probably) the Universal Talking Machine Co. before he emigrated to the UK in October 1900. He became one of the directors of the Crystalate Co.

"Neophon" was introduced and manufactured from February 1904 by Uhrenfabrik A.G., Villingen, Baden-Württemberg, Germany. Dr. William Michaelis, the inventor, was employed there as an engineer. When the Uhrenfabrik Villingen merged with the Union Clock Company, Michaelis left his employment and emigrated to the UK, founding the Neophone Disc Phonograph Co. in August or September 1904.