The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to make a recommendation and share some tips on my dying/staining process. I highly recoomend Keda Dyes, aniline dyes that are both alcohol and water soluble. Since they're alcohol soluble, they can be mixed in shellac to tint it and adjust the color. The dye comes in a kit, with Golden Brown, Royal Blue, Sunflower Yellow, Fire Engine Red, Coal Black dyes. I would definetely get some more of the Brown, as that is obviously the most used color. The Black is handy for touching up bedplate paint, and the red, yellow, and blue dyes allow you to adjust the brown. Whereas your normal stain, which is a pigment in solvent, generally blurs the grain a bit, these aniline dyes really make it pop.
Below are some pictures of an Edison Standard that I just dyed with the dye. I stripped the Standard, then sanded it down to raw wood, up to 150 grit. As this had been previously poorly refinished, there was no original finish that could be saved. I then mixed up my dye in water, since I'm putting an alcohol-based finish (shellac) on top. If you dye with an alcohol-based dye, and then finish with an alcohol-based finish, the dye color can "drift". I added the brown powder until I got a reasonably strong dye, and then adjusted it with some yellow and red to match the original color. The dye then was wiped on with a paper towl. Here's a picture of it after the dye had dried: When the dye is wet, it looks like it will when it has a finish coat on it. After it has dried, however, it's not that inspiring. One coat of shellac was applied, prior to filling the grain, which brought back the color; here's how it looked: With the grain filler, which will darken the wood a bit, the color will be spot on. The pictures make it look a bit redder than it actually is.

Benjamin

Aside from not obscuring wood grain, wood dyes give you so much more flexibility. Here's my example:

We have an old studio upright piano from the shellac days done in brown mahogany. The bench is a perfect match except it was done in red mahogany. So I stripped it and bleached it but still it had a purplish tint.
I googled the problem and was reminded that purple and yellow = brown. Following instructions, I bought a small bottle of honey amber Transtint and put a few drops in some brown water-based dye that I mixed up.
The bench dried to the color of my wife's hair (blondish brown?). After this I used brown only in several steps and got the bench to match the piano. I don't see how I could have done this with stains.

Yes, definetely one of the bigger pluses with dyes over stains is the ability to blend and obtain the exact color your looking for...

Benjamin

Why do you shellac before you fill the grain? I would be concerned that the grain filler might not stay put doing it that way, unless it was a very thin wash coat. Your Edison looks nice.

Earl,
Since the filler is quite dark, like that used by Edison, you want a wash coat of shellac to prevent the filler from staining the wood darker than the colour you want it. In this case, the shellac I used was thicker than it should have been; however, the filler still applied well, and didn't seem to have problems with adhesion. It's coming along quite nicely, with the decal on, and should be complete in a couple days...

Benjamin

Benjamin
I know they used to do it in that order, but the old grain fillers dried much more slowly and were stickier on their own. And I think they are grinding the pigment too fine for grain filler now and that's the main reason why it changes the color of the wood so much when it's applied. I've gotten so I buy pigment and add it to "natural" grain filler and it doesn't change the color of the wood so much. But a wash coat of shellac shouldn't be a problem, it just looked like there was a lot more shellac on your cabinet in the picture than that. They used to also put down a coat of 'gold japan size' sometimes before the grain filler was applied, but that was usually if they wanted the wood to stay very light in color as in Golden Oak.
It looks good! Make sure if it's oil based grain filler you let it dry completely or it will eventually turn white. I don't know why, but I've had that happen and it will take quite a bit longer to dry with shellac under it. I had the filler turn white on a dark mahogany piano roll cabinet and it really looked stupid. I got to do it over again and learned a little bit from the experience I guess. Good luck with it now. Earl.

Hi Earl,
The pictures really do make it look like it's a thick layer of shellac, but that's largely because the picture was snapped immediately after the shellac went on, so it still had the "wet" look. Thanks for the tip about the oil based filler; I used to use them, but have switched to the water-based (Timbermate) for ease of sanding, and dry time. The Timbermate really sands easily, with no sandpaper clogging. Not that I generally sand the filler much before my top coat with the water based, though. The water-based stuff is just a far more user friendly product (IMHO), easier to apply, and I'd highly recommend it.

Benjamin