The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Here's a far out question:
Has anyone made or had made a quality reproduction mahogany case for, say, any of the Edison models, keeping the original oak case in "case" you decide to sell it later.
i was thinking in this "case" of a Fireside.
Comments invited.

I'll answer your question with another question. I have a friend that had a Gem with no lid. He's an outstanding wood worker with professional skills and he asked to borrow a lid from a like model Gem. I was glad to accommodate his wishes and loaned him a lid from one of my Gems. Months later when I visited his home, he showed my his replica Gem lid. It was spot on perfect. There is no doubt in my mind that future owners of that Gem will never suspect that the lid is a replacement. I don't remember if his Gem was missing the base as well as the lid. But I do remember thinking that as long as you are creating a perfect replica lid and possibly a base, why not make it out of mahogany.

Was I wrong?

I would probably have stamped "REPLICA MADE FOR JERRY BLAIS" somewhere on the inside. The risk is a dishonest reseller sanding off the replica information.

A replica oak lid and base is nothing more than a reasonable effort to restore a machine. The manufacture of a mahogany base and lid really creates a ton of muddy water. That's because a nicely refinished Gem B is worth on either side of $400 while a mahogany Gem B, even with a refinished case, is worth a bunch more. The commissioning of mahogany parts is really part of a fraud even though it might be unintended.

What would you do?
Does anyone want to estimate what a mahogany Gem in good original condition is worth?

I would love to see other opinions on this.

Great thread!
Jerry Blais

Jerry B. wrote:I'll answer your question with another question. I have a friend that had a Gem with no lid. He's an outstanding wood worker with professional skills and he asked to borrow a lid from a like model Gem. I was glad to accommodate his wishes and loaned him a lid from one of my Gems. Months later when I visited his home, he showed my his replica Gem lid. It was spot on perfect. There is no doubt in my mind that future owners of that Gem will never suspect that the lid is a replacement. I don't remember if his Gem was missing the base as well as the lid. But I do remember thinking that as long as you are creating a perfect replica lid and possibly a base, why not make it out of mahogany.

Was I wrong?

I would probably have stamped "REPLICA MADE FOR JERRY BLAIS" somewhere on the inside. The risk is a dishonest reseller sanding off the replica information.

A replica oak lid and base is nothing more than a reasonable effort to restore a machine. The manufacture of a mahogany base and lid really creates a ton of muddy water. That's because a nicely refinished Gem B is worth on either side of $400 while a mahogany Gem B, even with a refinished case, is worth a bunch more. The commissioning of mahogany parts is really part of a fraud even though it might be unintended.

What would you do?
Does anyone want to estimate what a mahogany Gem in good original condition is worth?

I would love to see other opinions on this.

Great thread!
Jerry Blais

I hear you, and I wouldn't doubt these sorts of machines are already out there. If someone is going to be a scammer about these things, if they can't scam this, they'll scam something else.

Anyone who can reproduce these cabinets exactly probably wants to brag on themselves a little rather than try to claim it as an original, to be sure... and with damn good reason, too. If we are going to worry about what someone else is going to do with our machines after we're gone or move them on we'd all better stop ALL repairs, restorations, use of repro parts, etc., right?

On a similar note, have you seen Eduardo of Peru's Vic VI cabinets and stands? To die for, just like his spearpoint horns.

I know that several decades ago, when Amberola 1B's weren't worth much, some collectors had Opera cases built, and sometimes used Triumph lids after cutting a hole in the top, and transferred the mechanism into it. They usually used a Music Master horn from a Triumph and carefully removed the spring mount. My friend, Uncle Vanya, calls these machines "Operettas" to distinguish them from true Operas!

gramophone-georg wrote:

Jerry B. wrote:I'll answer your question with another question. I have a friend that had a Gem with no lid. He's an outstanding wood worker with professional skills and he asked to borrow a lid from a like model Gem. I was glad to accommodate his wishes and loaned him a lid from one of my Gems. Months later when I visited his home, he showed my his replica Gem lid. It was spot on perfect. There is no doubt in my mind that future owners of that Gem will never suspect that the lid is a replacement. I don't remember if his Gem was missing the base as well as the lid. But I do remember thinking that as long as you are creating a perfect replica lid and possibly a base, why not make it out of mahogany.

Was I wrong?

I would probably have stamped "REPLICA MADE FOR JERRY BLAIS" somewhere on the inside. The risk is a dishonest reseller sanding off the replica information.

A replica oak lid and base is nothing more than a reasonable effort to restore a machine. The manufacture of a mahogany base and lid really creates a ton of muddy water. That's because a nicely refinished Gem B is worth on either side of $400 while a mahogany Gem B, even with a refinished case, is worth a bunch more. The commissioning of mahogany parts is really part of a fraud even though it might be unintended.

What would you do?
Does anyone want to estimate what a mahogany Gem in good original condition is worth?

I would love to see other opinions on this.

Great thread!
Jerry Blais

I hear you, and I wouldn't doubt these sorts of machines are already out there. If someone is going to be a scammer about these things, if they can't scam this, they'll scam something else.

Anyone who can reproduce these cabinets exactly probably wants to brag on themselves a little rather than try to claim it as an original, to be sure... and with damn good reason, too. If we are going to worry about what someone else is going to do with our machines after we're gone or move them on we'd all better stop ALL repairs, restorations, use of repro parts, etc., right?

On a similar note, have you seen Eduardo of Peru's Vic VI cabinets and stands? To die for, just like his spearpoint horns.

we have all used repro/replacement parts to finish projects,the only problem is when the repro is passed off as original.there are a lot of dishonest people out there but ,how i wish that i had the skills to make new cabinets/horns etc.i have two of eduardos' spearpoint horns mahogany and oak they really are superb copies.

If I were to buy an original machine, I would want the components to be the same that were on it when it left the manufacturer or with any replacement parts from another machine of the same approximate age---except of course gaskets or gears---things of that nature, because of pot metal or other things that didn't hold up and wore. It is the same as a catalog---if I wanted an original 1916 record catalog, that is what I want---100 year old paper---not a reprint. If any parts are remanufactured or reprinted---it should be noted, so you know what you are buying and getting for your money. So when you buy and original machine --it is original.

When I am offering a machine for sale I try to honestly answer any and all questions as well a pointing out replacement parts. When asked about a finish being original or not, I answer honestly. If refinished I thank them for the compliment because that is exactly what it is.

At shows I have been asked by friends for my opinion about various machines. I answer to the best of my ability by pointing out details I see. The finish of a machine is frequently the point in question. I have been amazed that, after pointing out an accurate refinishing and a purchase is made that after some time, the new owner conveniently forgets the details. I have heard comment like "I really don't know if the finish is original but it sure looks good with my record cabinet". I can only surmise that once a purchase is made, they really prefer to overlook the true details.

It never occurred to me but maybe I should place one of my business cards inside the case with a list of details about the work I've done to a machine. Is this a good idea? I wonder how long it would stay with the machine.

Jerry Blais

Jerry B. wrote:maybe I should place one of my business cards inside the case with a list of details about the work I've done to a machine. Is this a good idea? I wonder how long it would stay with the machine.

I think it's a great idea. Sure, some less than honest folks might toss it hoping to maximize their income, but I think most people will treasure it as a part of the machine's history.

Regards,
Martin

Jerry B. wrote:When I am offering a machine for sale I try to honestly answer any and all questions as well a pointing out replacement parts. When asked about a finish being original or not, I answer honestly. If refinished I thank them for the compliment because that is exactly what it is.

At shows I have been asked by friends for my opinion about various machines. I answer to the best of my ability by pointing out details I see. The finish of a machine is frequently the point in question. I have been amazed that, after pointing out an accurate refinishing and a purchase is made that after some time, the new owner conveniently forgets the details. I have heard comment like "I really don't know if the finish is original but it sure looks good with my record cabinet". I can only surmise that once a purchase is made, they really prefer to overlook the true details.

It never occurred to me but maybe I should place one of my business cards inside the case with a list of details about the work I've done to a machine. Is this a good idea? I wonder how long it would stay with the machine.

Jerry Blais

You should do it just so you can remember yourself... you've had a LOT of machines! I may do it just for this reason.

This has turned into a discussion of ethics among traders, which is always good, but the question remains "Has anyone made or had made, for personal enjoyment, any very authentic looking mahogany or other wood cases rather than the original wood"? Some of us have no intention of selling our machines.
I personally think a mahogany case for a fireside , a standard or any other cylinder player, for that matter, would be the "bees knees".