The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Even if you own only one Columbia cylinder Graphophone or one Edison cylinder phonograph you may want to read on - especially if yours plays with a flutter (as so many Columbia cylinder Graphophones do!).

I have quite a few Columbia cylinder Graphophones in my collection. I have always appreciated and admired their interesting cabinets, motor variations and decorative upper castings (in spite of the dreaded pot metal carriages in many models). But I'd be willing to bet that less than five Columbia cylinder Graphophones in my collection play without flutter.

Why is that?

Columbia cylinder Graphophones (or Edison cylinder phonographs) that play with even the slightest amount of flutter provide some pretty awful listening. A few of my Edison cylinder phonographs produce the annoying flutter as well but the condition doesn't seem to be as prominent as with Columbias.

After carefully taking apart, examining everything and carefully putting back together a LOT of cylinder phonograph motors in my collection I have found that the answer (in most instances!) lies in the friction disc. If the disc doesn't spin perfectly straight and true you're most likely going to hear flutter. If you're hearing flutter in yours, lift up the motor board and look for yourself sometime while the governor is spinning at a slow speed. While it's surely possible that belts and governor weights are out of whack and are contributors, I've found that the most likely cause is that blasted friction disc.

Many Columbia governor friction discs were made of brass or (yikes!) aluminum. And many Columbia cylinder Graphophones used only a single brake/speed control lever for contact with the friction disc. And if an aluminum friction disc has been subjected to pressure on that one side for MANY years of storage or even play then there's a chance for a slight warp. And let's face it, Columbia (and Edison) made these friction discs in the (many) thousands and the chances are fairly good (!!) that some were not running perfectly true when installed brand new.

So what can be done about these friction discs that don't spin perfectly true?

No one that I know of makes governor friction discs - or at least perfectly straight and true running ones. If someone did I would buy a LOT of them and replace all of the friction discs in my cylinder machines that produced flutter. I simply can't listen to flutter for very long in a cylinder machine.

So, as of now, we have two options as I see it:

1) Look for original cylinder machine motors with true running governor friction discs (that fit ours that is warped), or

2) Find a person who is skillful with using a lathe and willing to try to true up your governor frictions disc(s). I have a friend who trued up a couple of my Columbia friction discs but I hate to bother him as it's tedious work. The friction discs are small, relatively soft and thin and therefore very little metal can be removed in the process.

If you have any input or know of anyone who makes (or is willing to make) good, true running governor friction discs please feel free to comment.

Even if you don't have a comment and you have gotten this far thanks for reading.

Doug

I wonder if they could just be pressed flat again on a shop press. It wouldn't be too hard, I wouldn't think. A heavy duty Snap On socket would work as a tool, or an adapter from a brake caliper piston press, for example.

George,
An interesting suggestion, and one that could work. The main problem I see with it is that you have to keep the friction disc perfectly perpendicular to the governor shaft. While you could press it, it could result in an even greater problem. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that it would be quite complex to get (and keep) everything aligned during pressing. A lathe is really ideal, as the friction disc can be mounted on the lathe via the hole for the governor shaft using an internally expanding collet, ensuring perfect alignment.

If any one would like me too, I could turn some of these friction discs on my lathe. Just send me a PM.

Benjamin

Over the years I have given serious thought to getting
tooled up to make these friction disks.

The biggest problem I see with them is that they all
appear to have been made too darn thin to begin with!

I suppose that since Edison was trying to minimize the
cost of every part, that he decided to make these disks
so thin to save brass.

However, it is my observation that using a weak and thin
disk such as this invites bending from any too high of
a sideways pressure applied from the stop lever.

This is exactly what I think happened to a good share
of them. They left the factory machined perfectly
round, true, and straight. But just one time being
gorilla'd to a stop with way too much pressure applied to the stop lever and the thin brass disk gets bent.

From there on out, the machine does the extremely
annoying warble routine.

It is my theory that a thicker disk, on the order of
.094, to maybe .100 or even .125 inch thickness would
stand up much better to this abuse without bending.

The only way I know of to ever find out if this is true
would be to make some experimental ones to test this
idea to see how well it solves the bending problem.

I had to round up a bunch of governor parts for my
Edison Standard D before I finally was able to put together a decent governor for it that runs perfectly
without any warble.

Sounds like an interesting project. It all depends on how bad the wobble is to figure out if shaving the face that the pads rub against is possible. I would have to use a dial indicator to see how many thousands of wobble there is and how much could be shaved. I would offer to give it a try for you (for free) if you want to send one. Or, tell me what motor you are working on and I can see if I have an extra disc to true up and send you. My chances of having and Edison one is better than a Columbia one.
Ken Brekke

I wonder if a disc could be soldered to the governor to make it thicker and then that faced off and trued up? Just sort of thinking out loud.
Dave

You might check with Paul Baker....he is capable of making most anything and when he's through, it's 100%.. no junk..the man can do miracles on/for these machines...

I'd have thought a simple die would true it up - heat the disc in the oven and then place in the die and strike the top die with a hammer.
Or have I misunderstood?

Steve

It would be very nice to make true governor disc, many are warped, it reminds me of brake drums on cars, thicker, truer ones would be welcomed.

Doug,

Are you suggesting someone make Columbia discs only, or Columbia & Edison? Either way, I think there's a few different styles. What ones are you specifically interested in?

Personally, I would prefer the re-cutting method.